450 Tail Bobbing A Bit...?

Rob Lancaster

Active Member
Hi Toni and all!
I was down for awhile but now I'm flying again when I can.
Ok quick recap,, my chopper is a HK450GT... Ok, ok, I know,, cheep-po right,,, oh yes your right: ha!!!

Question time,, why does my tail bounce slightly up and down? I can see somethings wrong and I checked all kinds of stuff to try to solve it but she still bobs....

Maybe some hot links to original Align parts maybe in order. I don't know at this time, fill me in folks!...

Thanks all!
Rob...
 

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Tony

Staff member
Hey Rob! Just a little something right off the bat. My name is Tony, not Toni. Toni is a girls name lmao.

And Rob, I don't care (we don't care) what you are flying as long as you are flying! That is what matters! I still fly clones, in fact, I have the HK450GT and it is/was one of my favorite helicopters. I say was, because I had a bad crash which needed a rekit. I say is because Paulster2 got out of the hobby and sent me his brand new kit! Still need to put that one in the air though.

Regarding your question, it is likely your head speed is too low. I remember having to fly mine at rather high head speeds to get it to fly anything close to correctly. Is there a solution to this issue? No, not really. I'm running an Align head on my heli (it's pretty much an SE V2 now with all of the Align parts on it) and if I go too low on the head speed, it does that minor toilet bowl wobble. Kind of irritating, but has never caused a crash as of yet.

Best bet is to raise your head speed until it stops. That is what I would do.
 

Rob Lancaster

Active Member
Hey Rob! Just a little something right off the bat. My name is Tony, not Toni. Toni is a girls name lmao.

And Rob, I don't care (we don't care) what you are flying as long as you are flying! That is what matters! I still fly clones, in fact, I have the HK450GT and it is/was one of my favorite helicopters. I say was, because I had a bad crash which needed a rekit. I say is because Paulster2 got out of the hobby and sent me his brand new kit! Still need to put that one in the air though.

Regarding your question, it is likely your head speed is too low. I remember having to fly mine at rather high head speeds to get it to fly anything close to correctly. Is there a solution to this issue? No, not really. I'm running an Align head on my heli (it's pretty much an SE V2 now with all of the Align parts on it) and if I go too low on the head speed, it does that minor toilet bowl wobble. Kind of irritating, but has never caused a crash as of yet.

Best bet is to raise your head speed until it stops. That is what I would do.


Hi again Tony, Tony with a -Y-...….. Hey, I think you're right, I've seen your videos and you don't look like no chick. It was late, he he hee.....

Anyway I had a calm afternoon today so I flew 2 packs. Ah yes, a higher head speed makes a difference.
It still bobs but only a little.
Here's something I've been thinking about.
I have not flown idle up in a long time, only FM0 because I only have a small back yard, and I ain't been to the airfield in a long time. I did recently fix two problems I had with my gyro. The first was with the Futaba GY520. After many years of flawless service it began to drift a little. Futaba said, "that shouldn't be and I should return it for inspection.
After going through 3 units I gave up on the Futaba gyro which I loved so much.
Next up is the Spartan Quark gyro. This one locks solid in flight, no tail drift at all...
Here's the little problem I had with this great gyro.
After landing I noticed the LED status indicator blinking an error code. It was just telling me my tail rotor wasn't centered. even after centering it, it just kept blinking the error code; hummm… Again she flies good with no lateral drift. I talked to Spartan and they told me to reset the trim and sub trim to zero then rebind it to my radio. BAM!! problem solved! I finally have a gyro without any funky error codes, hurray!

With all that said, I've only been flying FM0 and the rotor blades were tracking perfect. I noticed now there's about 3/4 of an inch of space between the two blade tips and that's pretty much the time the bobbing started.

Question: can bad tracking cause a pitching or bobbing problem like that?

Also I have a Align AP800 digital pitch gauge that I used to setup the head. Using this gauge it's clear there's a lot of Slop or play in the head. But what is the average center? How do I set the head so the blades come back into track without messing something else up? Know what I mean?

Oh hey,, I'm currently working on my 1982 Honda Accord 2 door hatch back 5 speed. Much work to be done on the body, head and carb but that's a story for another day, WHEW!
See you on the flight line,
Rob...
 

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Tony

Staff member
Oh hey,, I'm currently working on my 1982 Honda Accord 2 door hatch back 5 speed. Much work to be done on the body, head and carb but that's a story for another day
You should come over to my other forum and post that project up. I would love to read about it. www.BrokeAuto.com.

That old Futaba gyro was a MEMS gyro, which should have held the tail perfectly. Now that you have the centering fixed from the spartan, maybe try it again and see if that was the issue. Although it is quite old now and Spartan is far superior now days.

Speaking of the Spartan, they definitely do not like any trim or subtrim put in them. They will complain every single flight about one click lol. Glad you got that sorted out.

Now onto the head. One thing about the play you mentioned is there are a LOT of connection points on a flybar head. You have the servo, the swash, swash driver to the mixing arms, the washout arms to the flybar cage the mixing arms to the blade grips. I'm sure I forgot something in there. Any one of those can cause an issue with slop in the head. If you have a loose linkage end, that can cause slop, so definitely check all of them. Check your swash and make sure that large bearing is not wearing out.

But you are right, there should not be 3/4" of out of track blade tracking. That will cause vibrations for sure. Since you have so much, I would be pulling the feathering shaft and checking it and checking every single linkage and end and ball and swash and servo play and everything else that I could think of. If you are still running the clone head, I would definitely see if you can get either a better one, or replace the bad parts with Align. May be hard to do but definitely worth it IMO.
 

Rob Lancaster

Active Member
What makes the Spartan gyro better than the Futaba?
Sounds like a plan with the head. I'll remove it and check it. I do have a complete clone replacement head so I should be able to isolate the problem. But soon I'm going to want an Align head. Why are Align parts becoming harder to find? Do you know a good parts house??
I'll let you know how everything goes so stay tuned.
Oh hey, I may go over to the other forum and post up soon...
Rob...
 

Tony

Staff member
The Spartan is smaller, more compact. They are both MEMS, I just like the Spartan better lol.

I don't have any kind of supplier for Align heads. You are right though, they are getting hard to find. Your best bet is to purchase some align linkage ends. They are far superior to those flimsy clone ends. Might order a set that is fixed links while you are there. Makes setup WAY easier.

And hope to see you there soon. I have been super busy the last couple of days so not much posting over there.
 

Rob Lancaster

Active Member
Yo Tony,
Is there a such thing as spray lube on the bearings?
I just started to disassemble the head. So far there seems to be some slop in the flybar cage a blade grip area. Going in for a closer look at the swash plate soon.
Rob...
 

Tony

Staff member
Spray on lube? Not that I know of. I guess if you spray something on the bearing something may work its way down in there. But I just use bearing oil. 3-1 oil will work great as well as sewing machine oil.
 

D.O.G.

Goblin 380 Supporter
I also use 3 in 1 oil and use spray lubricant, white lithium grease in a spray can. I got it at Lowes.
 

Rob Lancaster

Active Member
I figured a spritzer of oil here and there would be a good idea.
Ok lets start at the bottom. No problem found with the main bearings, shaft, swash plate...
Only a couple of linkage ends may need to replaced. I probably wore them out prematurely while setting up the head.
Washout control arm bearings good...
All the other control arm bearings check out fine.
However, I found some slack in the flybar seesaw holder. With the clone part there's no bearing there, hummm.. I had to slightly tighten up those screws to take up a little slop and it seems to work on paper. But if you tighten them to much the flybar will bind.
Now I'm going into the feathering shaft and blade grips... Personal note: I never liked the play in the clones grips. The thrust bearing races should be thicker, or something, to help prevent all that blade wondering.
Ok folks, time to get back to work,
See you all on the flight line,
Rob...
 

Tony

Staff member
Yea, I know what you mean about the clone blade grips. They are definitely sloppy and the next ones you get ahold of may be just fine, or they may be even more loose. The radial bearing seats play a huge role in this one.
 

Rob Lancaster

Active Member
Totally conquer on that!
I want to mess around with it for learning purposes, but in the end I want Align parts.. (If I can!)
Hey all, why are Align parts fading from view?
I thought the Align Trex was the top of the line and there for the kits and parts would be around awhile??…
Any comments on this? Or am I flying some super out dated stuff? I hope not!!…
Thanks All,
Rob...
 

Tony

Staff member
The SE V2 Align helicopter (HK450GT) is quite old. Parts for them are definitely getting harder to find that's for sure. I think most clone manufacturers are starting to copy newer stuff now such as Goblin's. And pretty much everything is flybarless now days since you can get a flybarless controller for about $25 from China.
 

Rob Lancaster

Active Member
Found the problem!! It's just as you said Tony ; the feathering shaft is bent... Also I noticed that those two rods that protrude from the bottom of the main rotor housing and slide into the washout base were a little twisted.
I'll just twist them back and replace the feathering shaft with one of three I have in stock for such occasions.

Ok here's what's in the crew chief's report...
Several months ago I was low to the ground and started a turn. I added to much aileron and rolled the aircraft over till the blades hit the grass. The head speed was low (FM Normal).. At the time the only thing I thought was damaged was a bent flybar and a small chip on one of the main blades from hitting the flybar.

After I bent back the flybar and checked everything again I took it out for a test flight. It flew good, the blades tracked perfectly with no bounce no drift so I didn't think much more about it. I flew it about 25 or so times and decided to check all the screws and bolts on the head again to make sure everything was truly ok.

It was after that the trouble began!
Every screw, nut and bold were tight and good.
This is what happened.. When I checked the two screws that hold on the blade grips, they were tight but at the same time I must have turned the feathering shaft 90 deg. If the shaft is bent at one end like in this case, from the crash of months earlier, (I'll bet it was bent to the rear of the chopper.) That's why it didn't effect the tracking. That blade was probably lagging but no big deal.

Now what would happen if the shaft was bent and turned? I think the blade near the bent side will either climb or drop... (depending on which direction you turned it). That would explain why over night and no crashes since, the blade tracking went to hell the way they did.

Anyway that's my theory,, what do you guys think?
Now on to the blade grips and reassembly... Time will tell...………
Rob...
 

Tony

Staff member
Even if the shaft was bent and turned forward or backwards, not affecting blade tracking, there would (or should) be a vibrations since the blades are no in line with each other.

Either way, I'm glad you found the issue. Now it's time to slap it back together and give it another flight :biggrin1:

One more thing, there is another way to check the feathering shaft without taking the head apart.

 

Rob Lancaster

Active Member
Yes! Yes!! That's the idea I'm talking about. If after you spin a bent shaft you'll see the blade on that side climb or drop in tracking angle, know what I mean?...
 

Tony

Staff member
Absolutely. I read your other post right after I woke up and had to clean up a little dog mess (okay a mess a big dog made...) before I even had a single sip of coffee.. Guess I glazed over that part. Sorry about that.
 

Tony

Staff member
I have an old as dirt Black Lap and a 4 year old 125lb Doberman. They are a handful to say the least.
 

Rob Lancaster

Active Member
Ahhh, Black Labs and Dobies, awesome!

Another question chief,,,
I'm going to replace all the linkage ends per your advice.
I wasn't able to find fixed links but I did fine some linkage ends.
450-DFC
450- Pro
450-sport
These are all the same aren't they? They all use the same link right?
 
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