Misc. Spirit GeoLink Problem

[Heliman450]

Hi D.O.G., here's hoping that I can get it sorted out. GeoLink can't be the only such device out there, I'm sure someone will pick up on it somewhere. I have started another thread to address another aspect of my challenge Other - Beyond 8 Channels (Jeti DC-14). This will also be relevant when I eventually get round to fitting up my ex V-R 880 with retracts instead of its current not so pretty landing gear.

 

[RandyDSok]

Other than the info about updating drivers ( which I doubt was the issue, but it's covered ) ... and my suspicions that it may be a connectivity issue is about all I could contribute. It's doubtful I can add much to that. Even the issue about where a .4dg file should exist, is outside the scope I can assist with since that depends on how the programmers may have decided it should be located. Heliman's idea that the Spirit folder is a likely location is as good as any I could come up with without being familiar with software.

 

[Heliman450]

I transferred the file to the 'Spirit System' folder as per their feedback. Later today, I'll be back in the hobby room ready to test that the update happens automatically as they are suggesting in the thread.

I'm hoping that the connectivity issue is resolved now that it is changed over to the opposite side of the SpiritPro. During all my Internet wandering, I haven't found anything that says it should use the 'Secondary Port', only that it should be a 'Satellite Port'. During my exposure to the SpiritPro gyros over many years, I've got used to some of the 'quirks' involved in connectivity and the order in which the process should be done. All of this was captured in their documentation either originally or as part of the updating process. It seems strange that their web-based coverage of the GeoLink installation hasn't followed the same rigour.

I have to admit that although I painstakingly positioned the mounting tray to position the ports in the best position in the frame during my design process and even incorporated a larger slot, it isn't quite high enough to get my thumb and index finger through the slot to press the connection into a very small port, hence, my modification to the cable. I'm sure this has played a role in my repeated failures to achieve a stable connection. Just part of the fun of our hobby! Fingers crossed that this is behind me.

I will capture the steps of the process and publish them when I can complete the process without hitch.

 

[Heliman450]

Frustrating time ........... here goes:

• All was looking good with the module plugged into the 'Secondary' Port
• The Spirit interface software saw the device and asked for the update of the Firmware
• It began to download (status bar progressing)
• It came to a message asking for the 'Flash' and 'Recovery' buttons to be pressed 'as fast as possible' and to plug in the module immediately to avoid the SpiritPro from rebooting
• There were no instructions to unplug the module beforehand and the two buttons referenced were not available until pressing 'OK'. I think that I pressed them as instructed but I'm no computer game freak so probably took ages by their standards
• I'm now back at square one with the message that the module isn't connected or doesn't have a stable connection. I've tried to get back to the beginning but it refuses to acknowledge that the module's there

I'm now trying to sort out the best route to go to even be able to go through it again. Keep you posted

 

[RandyDSok]

The first 3 bullet points sound pretty normal as far as the various types of flashing firmware steps I've seen around... It's the 4th bullet point that is odd.

What is odd is the part about quickly deciding to push the Flash or Recovery option BEFORE the device reboots. ( if I'm understanding your wording ). I see no reason they needed to rush the process and could have put a 3rd button in for Reboot so the user could choose which they needed to perform... ie either Flash or Recovery.

In either case, you would never press both, it's either Flash to install the latest download or Recovery to install a previous version.

The other odd wording.. is to plug in the module immediately... why is it odd... you already had it plugged in otherwise you wouldn't have seen the screen to prompt you to download etc.

Some definition here ... Flash and Recovery are really the same type of process... one just increases the firmware to the next one... the other reverts it to a previous version. The process is the same otherwise.

Flashing is typically a pretty long process... if they made a decent enough user interface, they should have given you a percentage screen or a progress bar so you know when it is finished flashing. You always want to let them complete and never want to interrupt them. This is why most will want the device to be plugged in, fully charged or something similar. A partially flashed device can't work properly since it didn't get all of the instructions.


Again this is the "general idea" when it comes to all things flash related. Every flash screen I've seen differs but they are all doing the same type of steps. Common sense comment just to be clear... Since a lot of the programmers do not always speak English as their first language... their wording often times isn't always clear or proper. So be careful that you don't misinterpret some poorly worded instructions is probably the best advice I can give without also seeing the screens you have in front of you.

 

[Heliman450]

Hi again Randy, as a simple kind of person, I've always wondered why the concept of 'Flashing' anything is a good idea. Seems fraught with all kinds of issues to me. As a person from the area of expertise, I'd like to hear your take on 'Flash' or 'Upload', I prefer the latter and stick with it as it seems like something is under control especially when we need to give input by pressing buttons etc. to ensure a successful conclusion to the process. I also don't understand fully why the terms 'Firmware' and 'Software are used. My assumption has always been that the Firmware is a less complicated gathering of the mysterious stuff that goes on inside the 'Black-box'.

To address your points, everything is odd to my thinking and I find it difficult to understand why anybody would create such a procedure. Unfortunately, my wife interrupted me with a phone call during the process so I can't say if I missed anything. There was a status bar moving progressively towards conclusion (100%) and the confusing message was sitting there when I was able to address the process. My good lady apologised profusely for the interruption but I consoled her saying that she couldn't possibly have known that I was doing the process.

I have had some feedback from Spirit Support and will action it later this morning. It appears that my selection of the most recent update has caused the issue and the adviser seems to think that the process will continue once I select the earlier version that he/she recommends. Fingers crossed.

 

[RandyDSok]

This won't be 100% accurate but should give you an idea of how things work computer wise.

We need to start with a basic electronic circuit. These have just fixed function or set of functions depending on what it is for. When modern computers came about, they initially used switches so the electronics could do things other than what was originally a fixed system. So the switches gave electronics a flexibility they didn't have previously. Moving the switches in a certain way, is basic programming.

Then along came BIOS's which contained simple programming similar to what Operating Systems contain. One of the first you may have heard of is called BASIC and it was put in a PROM on the motherboard of the original IBM PC's that the users could access and then program to do what they wanted. PROM's are programmable read only memory but can only be programmed only one time. The users could also opt to boot into an operating system from disks... floppy disks in those days. So that gave users two methods they could use programming with... the built in BASIC and whatever was on the floppies they had on hand.

The next step came with EPROM's. These were erasable and could be reprogrammed if the user wanted. The way to erase them was done with ultraviolet light. After those, came EEPROM's... these were similar to EPROM's in they could be reprogrammed but the process was done electronically and not require the user to remove them and expose them to the ultraviolet light.

All of the rom types.. were rather slow to read and write. So the next type of rewritable media of the electronic type ( remember we still had floppies and hard drives... and now also SSD's ) was called flash media or drives. These could be read and written too much quicker than the previous rom types could.

By now... you should have a pretty good idea of where the term "flash" comes from. It's just the term they chose when writing to flash type media. "Uploading" could certainly used in place of the term "flash"... if using that as the term, then "downloading" would be the same as "reading" the flash media.

As an aside... SSD's use a type of flash media called nands. It's just a type of memory chip basically.

Firmware is the term used for software that controls hardware. It can contain everything that any other media contains... from a programming language like BASIC, to an Operating System... or a program you could run in certain operating systems.

 

[Heliman450]

Thanks for the explanation. I remember well the pre 'Floppy-disk' days. I even began to look into MS-DOS as a side interest but gave up when Mr. Gates made it unnecessary. Unlike many of my aging contacts over the years, my philosophy is to go with the times and embrace as much as possible new ideas and technology. It has served me well.

Returning to the details of the thread, I have bought a compass as recommended by Spirit (analogue). However, I can't get my iPhone compass to calibrate consistently enough to trust it. At the moment, it shows a positive deflection of 20 degrees. I haven't bothered to invest too much time in this having bought the old fashioned version. It would at least be something to see a confirmation of the alignment to Magnetic North when I get through these initial challenges and begin the calibration process.

 

[Heliman450]

Hi all, I'm pleased to announce that my Spirit-GeoLink Module is now successfully loaded with its Firmware. I finally achieved it with a mixture of feedback from Spirit Support Team and very flexible interpretation of said advice and their written word in the web-based information.

I would summarise the main issues for the struggle to the lack of basic information on actual installation, connection and Firmware updating. I attach a PDF with four screenshots to show this graphically and celebrate the triumph.

Many thanks to Randy for input to ensure that my laptop was up to the job and his tips in the non-hardware scene.

Next task is to work through the setup steps and capture it all for posterity

 

[RandyDSok]

Ouch... a PDF is not the best way to share pictures. PDF's are more of a mixed media type of file that allows precision printing of that information. It's mainstay was originally to be able to provide a reliable way to ensure the print output was exactly what the author intended, something that word processors and publishing types of software were unable to achieve because of the variations in the different printer drivers. It's also good when you need to include different types of media in one package such as text, images, forms etc... one excellent examples would be in the use of distributing a manual for some product.

Image files, that people can open directly with the image softwares they may have installed on their computer, are numerous. The ones I use are PNG for pixel precision purposes, it is compressed so it saves space some but it is also a lossless compression so it doesn't alter the image. The one I use that saves a lot more space is JPG ( also called JPEG ), it can save a file even smaller but it is a lossy compression so can affect the quality of the image in some cases. I'll also give an honorable mention to the GIF format which also does single image files but mostly because it supports small animation files.

The PDF you posted is 167 kb in size according to Windows, the same 4 images at PNG's would be 154 kb and as JPG ( at 80% ) would be 119 kb in size. While the PDF can be opened by most people, it is more difficult if they wish to save each included pic separately and if of different subjects, then file them separately.

I currently have a client that I will be going to their place to help address this very issue. They had a friend send them pictures in an email using a PDF format but my client wants to categorize the pics into different folders so they are organized. While I told them over the phone that the process is to open the pic in their PDF reader, select it to copy ( if it has that feature many don't ), then open their image editor ( such as Paint for a simple example ) and paste the image as a new image... then save the image as the file type they wish in the folder they want it at. Originally when they were sent a file in a picture format... they just opened the attached file and saved it where they wished.

PDF files do certainly have a use case where they are the best way to send the type of information they are made for. It's just not best for sharing pictures for some of the reasons I mentioned ( yes, there are other reasons as well ).

 

[Heliman450]

Ouch??

I have no intention of sharing the pictures only to display them here together. The original .png files are each about 80kb so 320 total? My PDF is undoubtably smaller or not?

To view them alongside each other to make my comparison then the person viewing them would have to open each one and do some 'work' to see them together. In this case, I did the work for them and saved a few 'kb- thingeys' for the website.

I have done a lot of work with photographs and over the years have always asked the recipient(s) which format they prefer to give them the least effort. As an amateur, I don't think that's too bad.

 

[Heliman450]

Hi all, moving on I'm going to start a new thread covering the setting up process, which will take place back in my kitchen area. Permission granted by the boss.

I managed to get some very rapid feedback from Spirit Support Team who appeared to be a bit confused that the connecting up had problems. I left them a response and will continue that dialogue if they take it up. Learning points from the process so far:

• Don't try to connect up until some research is done - Plug-and-Play it isn't! - According to the Team this seems to be my mistake at the start
• Make sure that you obtain the .4dg before attempting to connect the module and file it in the 'Spirit Settings' folder of the software
• Update the interface software so that you can see the access button in the 'General' Tab - I could see it beforehand but still didn't have the most recent version
• Make sure that your PC/Laptop etc. is also up to date with drivers just in case there are issues - Thanks to Randy for the pointers on this

Short summary of the process is as follows:

• Look for information as it isn't clear and thought through yet - Download the .4dg file which I found only by surfing answered threads (see below) - This will enable a search by the software for available Firmware updates - Be careful to choose only from the drop-down list for the version that matches your module - Currently, there isn't an update to enable v2 Firmware on v1 modules and both are presented once the module is successfully powered up first time - Once the module is loaded with the appropriate Firmware for your version the others disappear from the drop-down options
• https://www.spirit-system.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5329&p=41332#p41332
• Connect the cable to a DSMX port on the gyro (SpiritPro) mine is in the 'Secondary' Port - Take care to insert the plugs correctly especially if the gyro is not very accessible within the model - Connect the interface cable from the gyro but NOT to the computer yet
• Unconfirmed - Once physically connected go through the powering up as follows - Transmitter on - Receiver on - The Blue LED on the module should flash briefly and go out - Plug in the USB connector - Start the Spirit Interface software - The GeoLink module access button is located on the 'General' Tab

I'm considering to buy a second module for installation on my 550E to give me opportunity to test my procedure and capture it. If anybody's interested to correspond further, I'm still watching this thread. Good luck!

 

[RandyDSok]

The original .png files are each about 80kb so 320 total? My PDF is undoubtably smaller or not?

As a techy type... I prefer facts ... but as a general nerd of sorts... I'm also not beyond making wild guess's for the fun of it either. So some number guessing it is... I'll get back on topic in a separate post, but this is the fun one for me.

I can only surmise that whatever method you used to make the PDF, the images are smaller ( ie resized it ) or did some sort of conversion in the process. I have nothing that will take apart a PDF to know what image format it is using internally, I can only COPY from a PDF and then paste the image copy... then my image program will save as whatever file type it supports. So that would be basically the same process most people would also use. I can give details about the pasted image, the format I chose and it's size both for the image dimensions and space. I can say I'm using Adobe Reader as my PDF reader, then Paint.net as the image editor to save as a PNG file... I convert using XnView because of the number of image formats it supports.

Take the image listing the firmware version options... Saved as a PNG, it's pixel dimensions are 641x629 pixels using 24 bit color. The size on disk is 47,.29 KB. Saving it as a JPG, its size on disk is 30.23 KB. If you are the nerdy type and like guessing at the rest... You can compare the pixel sizes I have to the originals first to see if they are the same or not. The next will be with the approx number you gave for disk size.

You said the original was a PNG... assuming if the dimensions were not changed from what you started with, then we can safely assume they converted the image to one that does compress the image file in order to save some space. Notice the size differences I got converting to the JPG, you'd get it was about 64% compression. Now lets compare the disk sizes of what you listed of around 80 KB to my 47 KB and we see it's just under 60% smaller than what you listed... give or take since we aren't using exact numbers now. So a very close to the same compression amounts. So we can then assume they either used JPG as the compression format to embed the image or at least an image format that comes close to the same compression level.

If you go back to what I mentioned about JPG having different compression levels... I typically will use ( and did this time ) an 80% compression algorithm. There is a big difference in 80% vs the 64% I ended up with but we have to take into account what it does to compress... The image is mostly white across the whole image with only a few bits of text and graphics here an there. Because of all that white... we ended up with a better amount of compression in total in the end. We can also apply the same thought process to the original... and assume they used a similar compression amount give or take a bit.

You can get a little more accurate numbers if you wish since you have the originals and better compare the numbers. I just used approximates since we are guessing at a lot here anyway. If you wish... look at the dimensions ( pixels ) as well as the actually original disk size if you want to dive a bit deeper into it. As mentioned, it won't change what I surmised it will only make the numbers more accurate.

 

[RandyDSok]

Back on topic... mostly commentary.

Updating drivers is certainly important. If you can find the proper source for them on the company websites, it's also a relatively process to do. This is still the least likely cause of a software not working, it's just the "low hanging fruit" as it were and is mentioned since in some cases, it will help.

I'm going straight to the second bullet point first.... the missing .4DG file mentioned. This is the primary cause of everything IMO. It should have been installed if it were needed when the software was installed. If there are multiple versions used depending on which device is used, it still should be at the very least referenced as a required download.

I'm uncertain how long it was between the first revision and second ones... but the download should now have already been resolved and not require the end user to only find out later after digging into forum posts to find out the solution.


On the first bullet point... The team blaming the end user for them not providing that required file or references to it if it's a known issue IS ON THEM. It isn't on a user that doesn't have the technical details provided to them. It is also the responsibility of the company to properly explain technical details and jargon in a manner that a person without experience in the matter can understand. IT IS NOT up to the end user to have to go to other sources to understand technical details or jargon IF that product is not being sold specifically to an educated user that is normally already educated about the subject. Professional level devices are one that a company can expect the user to be educated, hobby level devices are not, they ( the company ) should expect to need to explain things in more simple terms and not assume the user is already up to speed on a subject.

I get it that it is tough for an engineer or software programmer to know how to explain something in more simplified terms. That doesn't remove the responsibility from the company selling such devices that aren't going to other professionals from getting that technical information into a format that lesser educated users can understand. Let's be clear also, by "lesser educated" I'm not saying "stupid", I'm saying exactly what I mean... someone that has little or no experience with some subject matter technical or not. I know of a lot of doctors and lawyers that certainly are not "stupid" and still have few clues as to how to properly use a computer, if we need a perfect example of what I'm saying.

Even if English isn't their primary language, this is again not an excuse they have if they plan to also sell to other English users.

I often get accused of treating someone as "stupid" when in fact I'm attempting to assume nothing about them... and just trying to be as clear as I can no matter what level of expertise they may or may not have. I'm often as blunt to the point as I can be but I still also try to over explain things.

 

[Heliman450]

Well hello again Randy, if you want the original screenshots, no problem, I will gladly share them for you to doodle around with. Of course, my rudimentary understanding of such things does, indeed extend to pixel sizes etc. In the good old days, I used Photoshop for all my picture editing when we changed from analogue to digital photography. These days, only my wife uses it and pays 11CHF per month.

As I said, I put two pairs of screenshots together to show them side-by-side. I did this in PowerPoint and saved the file as PDF. This has become my software of choice as in the later years of my career, I produced many instruction manuals/procedures etc. for clients whose workers don't have access to anything more exotic than the standard software package.

To 'blow my own trumpet', they were 'over the moon' as they could change the content themselves as procedures changed over time. I find that I can work very quick with it as time has gone by, very important when someone is counting the man-hours spent on all activities. Now I just use it for fun in my retirement.

 

[RandyDSok]

Well hello again Randy, if you want the original screenshots, no problem

No but thanks... I don't have a need of having the originals. I was providing that info just in case you were curious about the differences. I do keep my originals in RAW or PNG formats and then convert to JPG if sharing them in emails or forum posts.

 

[Heliman450]

Lots of good stuff in the two pages. My perception is that readers don't want to be faced with lots of text, particularly so in current times LoL

I'll start the new thread soon and capture my latest research following the pain of getting the module connected and powered up. To give me a second chance at going through it seamlessly, I have decided to buy a v2 GeoLink module and Hugo has one available Modellsport.ch | 1 Treffer für

My mistake was going straight for the download of the PDF version, which diverted my attention from the online version. The PDF hasn't been fully updated to reflect the online content. I'm yet to find the elusive .4dg file, apart from the thread in their Forum. I've apologised to the Spirit Support Team for my failing and criticisms, however, I will feedback to them regarding the file if I can't find it.

Follow this link and stay with the online version even though its a comprehensive coverage for all different systems that may connect to the GeoLink Module amongst others https://manual.spirit-system.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

 

[RandyDSok]

My perception is that readers don't want to be faced with lots of text,

I agree that many do not like reading long texts... I also believe that impatience and short attention spans are NOT positive attributes to have.

 

[Heliman450]

Hi Randy, I'd be interested to read your feedback on my other thread regarding the necessary changes I must do to bring my 'mini-project' to conclusion and get this bird in the air to check if my efforts have been successful. Experience of the Jeti DC-14 are not essential, only in the switching arrangement and channel setting up.

Other - Beyond 8 Channels (Jeti DC-14)

Hi all, I'm not looking for a step-by-step procedure for this, however, if someone can do so, then that's good, too :hdbng: I was once told (by a salesman) that I would never need more than 6 channels for flying a helicopter. This was when 'Heading-Hold' gyros were quite new. I chose a 9...

www.rc-help.com

 

[RandyDSok]

I don't think I can provide any information that would actually be of value for what I believe your goals are in that thread.

My primary experience is with airplanes and not helis or ground vehicles for that matter although I've owned all of those types. My first helicopter I got in the late 70's to early 80's ( memory isn't serving for a more specific timeframe ). That was a model called the Cricket and considered a beginners helicopter at that time. I did get it in the air but just barely for moments and that was all. My budget held me up from going further with it. My next I can't even give a timeframe for but it was an early model Blade 450, likely before the year 2000 but that is as close as I can guess. I did get it assembled but never got through the setup phase so it never got in the air. This time, my problem was I didn't have the time to work with it.

I don't think this will be of use, but it is an anecdotal bit of info.

Now about what the salesman told you, as you mentioned. I sort of think that they didn't have much actual experience with helis and was only expressing what they'd heard but probably didn't understand it at the time. The reason I say that is the Cricket I had strongly recommended at the least a 6 channel radio although they did mention that a very well trained pilot may be able to barely fly it with 4, they still considered a gyro as a real requirement and using a 4 channel radio as not recommended. I believe even with the newer smarter gyros we have today, they still recommend 6 channels and more.

So your statement about the salesman... you may want to give a timeframe in order to judge the state of the industry at that time as well as what your judgement of the experience the salesman may have had if any. That would allow that bit of info to be placed into perspective for the reader. Most of the RC hobby shops that are or were around here were small "Mom and Pop" shops, the owners were often RC enthusiasts that then opened a business but they were often only experienced in a single or couple of the aspects. The one by me did carry helicopters, but the owner didn't claim much experience with them and a serious customer with questions was often referred to another shop that that owner was a heli enthusiast. The original shop I mentioned, the owner was very Airplane oriented and could answer almost any question about them.

Even today, my airplane knowledge and electrical motor/battery knowledge is getting more and more out dated. Instead, my help here is starting to be more generalized because I'm not active in the hobby and I'm not current with the newer equipment any longer. So one again, it's a matter of perspective... if someone knows my information is dated so may be of use... they also know it may not be completely relevant to whatever they are asking about.

Your thread is about subjects that I've only heard info about but never had the experience to be able to be of much help directly. It's only cross over information that I may have that could possibly be of any use. There is where when I post something like "provide more info" in a thread can be of a bit of a help... so others that may help can if they have the info they need to make suggestions from. I know enough to know when there isn't enough info.. but not enough to provide the actual help itself.