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250 Tail Wag And Other Questions - Trex 250 - Ikon 2

Discussion in 'Helicopters' started by PancakeMSTR, Aug 30, 2020.

< Help On 3gx-aps Unit Setup Under Futaba T8fgs Radio | Keeping You Posted >
  1. PancakeMSTR

    PancakeMSTR New Member

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    Hi,
    So I recently got back into RC helis and I've been trying to setup a Trex 250 I had previously built back in like 2013 or something.

    Mainly, I converted it to flybarless with the Ikon 2 FBL controller. I also bought a new transmitter (FrSky Horus X10S Express), and replaced the receiver with an X8R.

    It's been a...journey... but things have actually gone reasonably well up until now. I've finally started flight testing the bird, and unfortunately I'm getting excessive tail wag for no obvious reason.

    Here are things I've tried

    • Tightened tail rotor assembly so that it wasn't free to rotate about the tail boom (yeah, it was loose).
    • Replaced shot-to-shit 42 mm blades with brand new 37 mm blades.
    • Replaced the very sticky (would barely slide along the tail shaft, maybe the grease went bad?) micro heli tail rotor assembly with a nice metal align assembly that is nice and smooth (by my standards).
    • Played around with Tx gyro gain.
    • Spooled up Heli on my desk (yes, seriously) and watched for vibration in the tail. Did not see any, but was hard to tell through shitting my pants.
    None of these have had any effect. I guess except for Tx gyro gain, but to remove the wag I have to set it so low the tail wanders.

    Here are things I'm planning on trying
    • Set ESC (Align RCE-BL15X) BEC to 5.5V and 5.0V (I've read in various places that this has helped).
    • Replace the Align DS420 tail servo with a KST DS215MG (I've already done this, gonna flight test it this morning). I just flight tested the new servo and it actually seems to have helped quite a bit. There is still a small, high-frequency vibration in the tail that I'd like to fix (any ideas?), but it's definitely an improvement.
    • Play around with Ikon PID settings?
    • Other recommendations?

    Lastly, tail wag aside, I have two questions about setting up the Ikon that I've been unable to answer:
    • I have my ESC (http://www.align.com.tw/ManuaLib/Heli/esc/G20310-RCE-BL15X_en.pdf) setup in Helicopter 2 Mode (Soft Start + Governor). My impression is that, in this mode, the ESC attempts to keep the motor spinning at a constant rate, and that's what you want for idle-up flight. So how should I configure the "Throttle out & Governor Setup" page on the Ikon? It's not really clear to me what throttle out is or the relationship between the Ikon and the align ESC, or in general what this page is supposed to be configuring. Can anyone help out?
    • My other question is about swashplate setup. You are supposed to set Cyclic deflection to 10 degrees, but I'm not sure where or under what conditions I'm supposed to set that angle? It's not well explained.
    For reference, here's an imgur gallery of my transmitter settings (I'm using OpenTX) and my ikon settings:

    Hope that is enough information! But obviously I'm happy to answer questions and try recommendations. Thanks for the help, and excited to be back into RC!
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020


  2. Tony

    Tony Administrator Staff Member

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    First thing that came to mind for me was tail gain. Make sure you are on the correct channel for tail gain, and set it to a positive number. If you have one that goes from -100 to +100, then set it to about 65 to start. If you have a tail gain that goes from 0-100, then set it at about 65.

    One thing that I cannot see, and is commonly put on backwards is the tail blades. We have all done it, and it is not a fun experience. Also, make sure the tail blades are going counter clockwise when looking at the right side of the helicopter.

    As for the governor in the Align ESC, that governor is horrible and should not be used. Just turn it off. Set the IU in the Tx throttle curve menu for IU1/IU2 for a flat curve, or a slight V curve if you would like. Anything below a 500 size helicopter (425mm blades) doesn't need a governor IMO. Just not enough blade to need constant rpm. Heavy 3D, then yes. Normal flying, no governor needed.

    I would leave the PID settings alone in Ikon as it should be very stable stock out of the box. PID will be for very fine adjustments if you are getting oscillations at high speed, or when stopping the tail after a fast piro or something.
     
  3. PancakeMSTR

    PancakeMSTR New Member

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    Hi Thanks for the reply, been going off your youtube videos :)

    When you say "make sure you are on the correct tail gain channel," what do you mean? Which channel should it be? I think I've got it set to channel 5 on my Tx, and when I adjust the gyro/gain channel on the Tx it adjusts the setting in the Ikon software. Is that as it should be?

    And my gyro channel goes from +/-100, so should I set the gain in the Ikon software to 65%?

    I've got the tails on like this:

    Is that right? And I'll check that they spin the correct direction.

    I will do this and get back to you. Thanks for the heads-up. PS - can you suggest me a better ESC for my 250 or is it okay to stick with the Align with the governor off?

    Ok, I will leave this alone for the moment.
     
  4. Tony

    Tony Administrator Staff Member

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    The blades are on correctly, just make sure they are spinning counter clockwise in the aspect you are looking at in that video.

    And it sounds like you have the tail gain set correctly, and I would set it to 45, but not in Ikon, but in your Tx (or use your Tx to move the slider to 45). This will need fine tuning.

    Another thing to remember, these little 250's are, well, mine was called "Nightmare". I ended up just selling the helicopter before I got it to 100%. I would say, after replacing everything with Align parts (it was a clone), I got it to about 75%, maybe.

    So check the tail blade direction and make sure the tail gain is good. Also, with the tail servo connected, make sure there is absolutely NO binding in the tail. Any binding will cause this issue.
     
  5. PancakeMSTR

    PancakeMSTR New Member

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    So I checked the tail rotor rotation direction and it's correct. I turned off the align ESC's governor and did a flight test and, tbh, it's flying pretty alright? There doesn't seem to be much tail wag anymore, though the tail is still a bit "twitchy," maybe a little more than I'd like it to be. Maybe that's just how it is, though.

    I think I might replace that ESC though anyway. Can you talk about how the governor setup in the Ikon software is supposed to work? I'm confused by it.
     
  6. Tony

    Tony Administrator Staff Member

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    To use the governor in the Ikon, you will need an RPM signal wire from the ESC so that the Ikon knows how fast the head is spinning. The Align ESC's that small do not have this wire, and do not need it.

    As for it getting better, I will bet dollars to doughnuts that the governor was kicking the tail around by "hunting" or "oscillating". This is one of the big issues with the Align Governors. Look at all of the Align kits now days, they ALL have HobbyWing ESC's in them, and for a really good reason.
     
  7. PancakeMSTR

    PancakeMSTR New Member

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    I bet you're right about the governor. Gonna try to pick up a new one in the next month or so.

    Thanks for the help by the way. I've flown it a few times now and it really does seem to be behaving better.
     
  8. Tony

    Tony Administrator Staff Member

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    That's awesome, happy I could help out!
     
  9. PancakeMSTR

    PancakeMSTR New Member

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    Hey Tony - or anyone else.

    Even though I've been flying with the Horus and the X8R for not more than a month now, I'm kinda thinking about jumping ship. Specifically, to a radiomaster TX16S. The question is, should I stick with FrSky receivers, like the X8R, or should I switch to using different receivers?

    Mostly I'm thinking about Spektrum's DSMX satellite system, and its compatibility with the Ikon 2. My main question is, do I need two satellites for the Ikon? Or can I make do with one? And is there anything else about spektrum satellites I should know about, or are they pretty straightforward?
     
  10. Admiral

    Admiral Well-Known Member

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    With iKon & iKon2 I use one with below 500 size and two 500 and above, over several years have not had a problem.
     
  11. PancakeMSTR

    PancakeMSTR New Member

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    Which one do you use? Can you link me? I want to make sure I'm getting the right thing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  12. Admiral

    Admiral Well-Known Member

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    I use Spektrum DSMX I don't think they work with Horus.
     
  13. PancakeMSTR

    PancakeMSTR New Member

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    They don't, but I'm switching to a radiomaster TX16S multiprotocol. So this Spektrum RC DSMX Remote Satellite Receiver [SPM9745] | Airplanes should work? And I won't need a separate receiver, just plug that right into the Ikon and I'm good to go?
     
  14. Tony

    Tony Administrator Staff Member

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    Correct, you will just plug the satellite directly into the Ikon, and within the software on the computer will be a bind button. Flip that on, power cycle the gyro and it will put the satellite receivers into bind mode.

    I trust DSMX more than any other out there, but I have really only used Spektrum since I started.
     
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