450 Starting Problem..

Rob Lancaster

Active Member
Today I started to have problems starting up the motor.
As I began to move the throttle up the motor would just begin to turn and then just stop. If I move the throttle up and down quickly several times, it will start up rather abruptly. After that, I go up to FM1 and there's no problem until I try to start up from a dead stop again.

I think I have a problem with either the ESC or the motor...
What do you guys think?
And what would you recommend for a replacement??
I don't need the best but at the same time I don't need junk either.....
Can't wait for some input on this one.. Fun, fun, fun! :biggrin1:
Rster...
 

murankar

Staff member
Also check your normal mode settings. Make sure they are what they need to be.

Make sure the wires are fully seated in to the rx.

Finally if you have a spectrum tx go to the monitor screen and see how your throttle responds. Another test would be to plug in a servo and see how it acts. If it operates smoothly then you be almost certain its the motor.

If it is a motor issue then either rebuild it or get a scorpion motor. They are priced fairly for that class heli. Stay away from the 2220-# series. Get a newer 2520 series motor. Should be around 75 bones for it. Now pay attention to the kv. The 3500 is for 3S, the 1880 and 1580 are 6S. All three have 3.5mm output shafts.
 
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Rob Lancaster

Active Member
The 2520 series motor looks great.
What would be a good ESC to match it up with?

Oh I noticed that the Scorpion motor bearings are replaceable. They also require oil every 5 or 6 flights.
How do you oil the rear bearing?
 

murankar

Staff member
I have not oiled mine. Not saying don't just letting you know. Your bearing oiling can be what you want it to be. Unless your flying for 8 hours a day everyday then yes oil every 5 to 6 flights. 20 is more realistic. Once you see how difficult it can be to oil the bearings you'll agree too. Each motor has two bearings . An upper and a lower bearing.

Esc would be any hobbywing platinum will work great. If your on 3S then get something under 45 amps. If your on 6S get the 60 amp. Its over kill but it will work great. In the specs of the motor it should give a max amp rating, base your esc on that. You want the esc to have a higher amp rating than the motor. Typically.
 

Rob Lancaster

Active Member
I have not oiled mine. Not saying don't just letting you know. Your bearing oiling can be what you want it to be. Unless your flying for 8 hours a day everyday then yes oil every 5 to 6 flights. 20 is more realistic. Once you see how difficult it can be to oil the bearings you'll agree too. Each motor has two bearings . An upper and a lower bearing.

Esc would be any hobbywing platinum will work great. If your on 3S then get something under 45 amps. If your on 6S get the 60 amp. Its over kill but it will work great. In the specs of the motor it should give a max amp rating, base your esc on that. You want the esc to have a higher amp rating than the motor. Typically.

Can you explain more about the 3s 45 amp and the 6s 60 amp ratings? Can't you draw 50 or 60 amps with a 3s pack too??
And what is the motor's KV RPM Volt rating mean?
Can I use a 3200 KV motor in my 450 SE V2?
Thanks again murankar...
 

murankar

Staff member
Lets start out with the easy stuff.

KV actually means kilovolt, in our appliation it means revolutions per volt. So a 3500Kv motor will rotate 3500 times per volt applied to it.

As for the amp ratings, what ever motor you choose will have a max amp rating. Thats how much power it can potentially draw from your batteries. Keep in mind Ohms Law on this topic. A 3S battery at nominal voltage is 11.1 volts. This means your motor of 3500KV will spin at 38,850 RPMs. On 6S that same motor will spin at 77,700 RPM. I only stated that for the porpouse of this question. You wouuld not use a 3500Kv motor on 6S.

I do not know what heli you have so I will keep this as generic as possible. Now an airframe designed for 325mm blades is typically a 450 class heli. This size historically has been a 3S setup, 45 amp ESC, 3500Kv motor and a 3S 35C lipo pack. This setup will get in the range of around 2700 to 3500 RPM at the head.

Next are the 360 / 380 class helis. Currently the 360 class is the same airframe as the 450 but a little longer to accomidate the longer main blades and thats it. This size heli is usually flown on 6S but can be flown on 3S just as well. This setup requires a slightly bigger ESC, motor and battery setup. Your battery on this setup for this size frame is going to be a 6S 1800 35C pack. Thats going to be an estimate based on what the Guai X3 and Goblin 380 can handle. Next the ESC, Goblin recommends a 60 amp esc for this setup and I dont know why but they do. Your motor for this setup is going to be based on what you are trying to do. First you need to know what target head speed you want, what does your gearing need to be at based on motor kv for that head speed to be acheived. It sounds complicated but you will understand it the more you work with it.

Can a 3S pack draw 50 Amps also? Yes it can. You need to know the capabilities of your batteries. a popular 3S pack is the 2200 35C pack. These are by far the most popular packs for a 450 class heli. If we take the 2200 mah (capacity) and multiply it by the c rating (discharge rate) then divide by 1000 we will get the constant discharge rate of the pack( (mah * C rating) / 1000) . Now with this info we can find a motor and esc combo that ideal for the pack in question.

No 2 packs are made the same. Because of the variance in manufacturing you typically will not see the labeled output of the packs. So when you build your electrical system for your model you want to make sure your not going to over work any one part. Its bettery to be on the high side of things and have all the head room you need. While the ESC and motor can handle peaks well above their ratings your packs may not. I hope this answers your questions. If not ask me again and I will try and do better.
 
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murankar

Staff member
As for oiling the motor bearings. If your doing it one time then yes its easy and not so bad. When your doing it once every hour its a pain in the back side. On my Gaui X3 the motor can is sitting upside down on the top of the frame. Its fairly easy to oil for the most part. On an Align 450 Pro the motor can sits under the moto mount and inside the frames. This heli is a huge pain to try and oil every hour. Been there done that and not doing it again. Oiling your motor is subjective in nature. I have heard that some pro pilots or intermediat pilots not oiling bearings and the motor were fine. Again its going to be very subjective in nature. I have yet to oil my Goblin and my Gaui, just for the record though I am talking about the past motors I have had on the Gaui. The current motor has seen maybe 20 flights if that. Long story with the X3 and no its not due to the lack of oil.
 
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murankar

Staff member
One more thing. I have ran the Castle Lite 50 amp esc on my Guai just fine. That Esc will handle 6S along with 3S on all 360 and most 380 class helis. Like I stated earlier Goblin recomends the 60 amp for their 380 Goblin.
 

Admiral

Well-Known Member
Lets start out with the easy stuff.

Congratulations Murankar, brilliant explanation of the "Easy stuff"

As for Oiling Scorpion motors I read somewhere that it was because Scorpion use open bearings and most other brands used sealed bearings, however I have a set of genuine Scorpion replacement bearings and they appear to be sealed. I oil my Scorpion bearings 2 or 3 times a year when I go through and clean a re-oil the rest of the Helicopter as well, never had a bearing fail yet.
 

murankar

Staff member
Hey I did my best. After 7 years in the hobby its like common knowledge to me. :lmao:
Ask me how to size a prop for a plank and I will be like :drools:.
 
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Rob Lancaster

Active Member
Wow! Now that's what I'm talk'n about! Nicely done!
I always wondered what the KV rating was for. So to answer my own question, I need a 3500 KV motor for my Trex 450 SE-V2 clone. That's because of the length of the blades (325mm) and I need the head speed the 3500KV at 11.1v motor provides, right??
Or could I say, with a 3500 KV motor my head speed is 3500 RPM. The motor is at 38850. RPM at 11.1v, right?? I guess the 450 head likes it at 3500 RPMs right?
Did I learn anything?

Oh before I forget, I'm assuming the above RPM specs are achieved using a 150T main gear.
But what T count should I use with the Scorpion 2025 3500KV motor's pinion gear? I was running a 11T pinion gear before with my old cheapy motor.
Anyway I've been looking around for a good ESC. What do you guys think? Is this a nice match for the scorpion 2025 3500KV motor?? RCE-BL45P Brushless ESC (Governer Mode) HES45P01

Do I need a programmer box with this ESC? Times are a change'n…………..
Well that's about it for now...
Thanks guys...
 

murankar

Staff member
That motor is a 3s motor. It can run on 4S but you won't be able to gear the drive train to work correctly. I have that motor on the hobbywing 60amp platinum esc. As for a box yes it has one and no you don't need it. Makes it easier to program over stick programming.
 

murankar

Staff member
Depends. If I remember when I had my 450 Pro clone I ran an 11t pinion. I just ran the numbers through Mr Mels Headspeed calculator, a 12t pinion will give you 3300 approx at the head. I would go with a 13t which will put you at 3500 and change. I then would set a governor to max out at 90% throttle (PWM). Your max head speed should be right around the 3300 area and yopu will still have head room for your governor if you run one. A governor is not really needed but if you get the hobbywing youll want it.
 

Rob Lancaster

Active Member
Ok a 13 T it is...……
Hey about the program boxes,, I was looking at the Hobbywing Platinum Pro and other makes like it as well and they say the programming boxes are sold separately. So I'm confused as to if I need to get one when I order?
I do like that Scorpion 2520 3500kv motor!
The mission continues...
Thanks buddy!...
 

Cyclone 7

Member
I've got the Hobbywing program box which I bought with my Platinum 60A v4. A very useful addition to the bench which gave me a good insight to the 'inner workings' of the ESC - it helped me understand better how and why the ESC works the way it does. It is cheap enough to consider worth having. I use the AR7210's built in governor mode, so the program box was very useful in ensuring that the ESC was correctly set-up to allow the AR to take control.
 
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