Kens Crash Report

Ken Jackson

Active Member
Ken ... are you sure you have enough Gain? sounds like your helis is doing the normal thing it does in Rate mode .... weather cocking down the the direction of heli attitude or the wind!

what gain settings are you set at? .... Spektrum radio ??

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you should be setting it up so it wags its tail ... then landing and backing off 3 - 5 points until it stops.


Westy I have tried gains from 40 to 90. Yes Spektrum DX8. Did all the things you had suggested with the tail it is not binding. Brand new DS425M. Gyro is a GZp790. You can see in the video the gyro switch from rate to hold.

450 crazy tail - YouTube

Gyro at 70
450 Crazy tail 2 - YouTube

Gyro at 55
450 Crazy tail 3 - YouTube

450 Crazy tail 4 - YouTube

Since video I replaced main shaft and switched to a GP750. Also changing out the swash plate. We will see what happens next.

Ken

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Mentioned this in another post. I don't think it should matter but you tell me. The tail is a Tarot TT conversion. It is for a 450 Pro and this bird is an SE. The tail boom is approx. an inch longer then the stock tail.
 

pvolcko

Well-Known Member
Are the tail blades at 0 pitch when you put the gyro into rate mode instead of heading hold? Seems like it is hunting for hold position and it can't find it, perhaps because the tail control rod length is setup such that the tail blades aren't zeroed at mid stick in rate mode (or with a little bit of right thrust dialed in to overcome main rotor torque).
 

Ken Jackson

Active Member
It's pretty close to zero, just slightly right. Just tested again with different gyro GP750, seemed a little better but need to get outside to really check it. Hunting is a good description.

Oh yeah liked your video, was that a maiden flight?
 

Ken Jackson

Active Member
Prokko,
Looks pretty smooth, haven't caught up on my video viewing. I need to, it helps us all learn. I put an old servo on my problem heli and i could at least hover it. But it is still hunting. Guess I'll start with a new servo. thought about taking it apart but i should probably just return it. Its a 2 week old, never flown Align DS425M. I have been watching your build, and like i said looking good.

This thread started about my crashed 500, its back together, new frame, skids, new canopy. Thought I'd go green, LOL :joyous:

DSCN0559.jpgDSCN0560.jpg

Still have much bench work left, but I wanted to replace the frame from about 3 crashes ago. Epoxyed (PC7) carbon fiber braces on front legs of frame. it held up through 3 crashes and wasn't broke, just wanted to start clean. I think I'll call this build 14 for my first ever 500.

Ken

thanks everyone for your help and support I do appreciate RC-Help!

DSCN0559.jpg

DSCN0560.jpg
 

Ken Jackson

Active Member
Sir Venom passed a spin up test. 3GX set up is complete, did it from memory this time. I still didn't know 100% if the shafts were OK. Ran it up to 1200 rpm, no vibrations. As soon as I get some decent weather I'll hover test it but looks pretty good and the new canopy rocks!

Ken

Tony maybe I should start a new post here so let me know. Since I already brought up my 450 I thought I just continue. Remember this is my first forum.

Here is the latest on my 450. I can hover it at least now but the shake never goes away. Set gain at like 60 and it shakes like crazy, too much gain. Set gain at 15 and the tail does not hold. Gain at 22 seems to be the majic comfort number but the shake never goes away.

This is a 450SE with a 450PRO torque tube conversion. The boom is approx in inch longer then the stock tail.

Seriously if you think I'm dumb for even trying this just say so. I really just want to know if I can fix it because other then the tail shake I'm flying this in my gargage next to my truck and in between my truck and a table with a table cloth. It is almost hands free as far as the head goes. I'd really like to figure out the tail

Either I'm just trying the impossible or help me find a fix.

I can take it guys what do you think?????

Ken

Tail Rotor Dance - YouTube

:stupid::stupid:

Or

:02.47-tranquillity::02.47-tranquillity:
 
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pvolcko

Well-Known Member
Any chance you can take some pics of the tail at reference position showing detail on the slider position, blade position, link arm and servo horn position. I'm still thinking this is a mechanical setup issue. What happens if you put the gyro in rate mode with a similar 50-60 gain amount?
 

Ken Jackson

Active Member
I was looking through the other videos, I know I had tested rate mode but couldn't find or remember what happened. Don't you mean negative 50-60?

That full 360 at spin up sure is weird. Once it turns completely it grabs and holds but then just shakes.
I will get back to you with the video your asking about. May be a day or two, thanks for your help.


Ken
 

pvolcko

Well-Known Member
Yeah -50 or so. Just to see. It will drift but not uncontrollably. And yes that 360 was odd, but I changed it up to being on the hard surface and the heading hold maybe being off kilter at spin up. I have my gyro gains on a two position switch to clear that before spin up. Quick up and down to flip from heading hold to rate (to reenter and reset) and then back to heading hold.

Looking to see how much rudder you have to hold to keep it steady in rate mode. And to see if it wags in that mode too.
 
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Ken Jackson

Active Member
Yeah -50 or so. Just to see. It will drift but not uncontrollably. And yes that 360 was odd, but I changed it up to being on the hard surface and the heading hold maybe being off kilter at spin up. I have my gyro gains on a two position switch to clear that before spin up. Quick up and down to flip from heading hold to rate (to reenter and reset) and then back to heading hold.

Looking to see how much rudder you have to hold to keep it steady in rate mode. And to see if it wags in that mode too.

The 360 is weird because I do the same thing, switch to rate mode move the stick back and forth to reset then flip to Hold mode before I start up. I'll have to see if I can program a soft start in my ESC without the programming card (Cobra).

Anyway here is a new video showing the heli flying in rate mode. Flys pretty good that way. Had to slightly give right stick to keep it from floating nose left. You'll see near the end of the video when I switched it to Hold mode and the shake started. The last half of the video shows the slider and such. Not sure I gave you enough to draw any conclusions, let me know I'll be willing to video anything that might help. I have moved the gyro back up on top of the tail rotor holder. I had it on the bottom behind the receiver. Neither place made any difference.

Rate Mode - YouTube
 

pvolcko

Well-Known Member
As you said in the vid, I too wouldn't expect the slight non-centering of the servo arm or slight off-zero on the blades at reference position to be affecting it this badly. Ideas:

1) It shouldn't matter, but maybe it is: try moving the links (or the entire tail servo bracket) so that the blades are zero or even slightly angled to give tail left/nose-right thrust to counter main rotor torque. As it is now there is slight thrust tail-right which is in the direction the torque wants to take it. It's possible it is confusing the gyro. Again, I would expect it to be able to handle it, but you never know.

2) Do you have the correct tail servo frequency/type selected in the gyro? If you're running the servo at lower than optimal freq it can impact response time. For instance, at freq 50hz (analog) each control cycle is .02s. At 333hz each cycle is .003s. So setting analog mode on a digital servo, while save in most instances, will result in substantially reduced performance.

3) In another thread a gyro setting for "delay" was mentioned. Usually this is used if the servo is inordinately slow (or tail blades are undersized, or the tail response is otherwise below expectations, also used for large helis simply due to inertia and the slower to react tail from steady state), so the gyro doesn't overshoot and cause "ringing" or oscillations in the tail control. Does your gyro have a similar setting for slow tail servos? Have you tried it? A 450/500 is on the border between a fast responding bird and slow responding bird for purposes of this setting, so using the larger heli setting may well calm this oscillation down. If these tests were with "no delay" or the small heli size setting, try the larger. If it was set larger, try the smaller setting. The last bit is important, if it was set for a large heli response but you have an "over performing" tail for that setting, the delay can result in this kind of oscillation too (tail moves faster than the setting anticipates, so it overshoots and the gyro has to correct back the other way, overshooting again, rinse repeat).
 
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Ken Jackson

Active Member
Pvolcko

I have moved the blade position a few times. Found another rudder servo, it was on this 450 when it was given to me. Basically I have gotten the same results now with 2 different gyros and 3 different servos.

Frequency was set at the highest speed already. I didn't try slowing it down yet. And I haven't tried a DS520 yet. Lol

I also experimented with the large Heli/small Heli setting. It was set on larger Heli as it had come off my 500. I changed it to small Heli but the result did not change much, maybe a little better. I am leaving it on small Heli setting, and thanks for mentioning that because I had totally overlooked that setting.

Took it to a friend of mine, he has about 5 years building and flying experience. Figured he would something obvious right away. Nothing! He was stumped as well. We concluded that it is probably several small things added together to cause this. I have a set of carbon fiber blades coming tomorrow. We figured we would eliminate blade flex and get better grab of the air with CF over plastic. Even though those yellow blades were new KBDDs.

The other thing I tried this evening was to lower the ball on the servo horn one position. Since there is limited movement of the servo due to short travel of the tail control set that there was no good reason to be on the top hole. By dropping down a hole it actually made the servo response smoother. In my flight test the wag was almost completely gone. I am sure the CF blades will be the icing on the cake. I will shoot video before the new blades and after so you can see the difference.


Before tonights test I put the new DS415M tail rudder servo back on. I lowered the ball on the servo horn. I also set the blades with a little right. I almost took the training wheels off today it was so close to being fixed. But at this point I would loose the control conditions i established, so tomorrow should be the end of it all and I'll be back to having a 450.

Thanks so much for your help. I did have too good flights tonight with my 500.

Ken
 

Ken Jackson

Active Member
Still at it. it really only shakes at hover, once i make it fly to wiggle seems to go away. I'm also wondering about head speed.

Here is the very end of my test. I was doing small figure 8's. The piroettes before I turned the camera on were almost no right stick. That rudder whips it around quick and the head just sits still, happy. (not the pyros in the video clip, those arent smooth at all. At least I can fly it, it was 5-6 mph wind so not too bad. Flew 2 1/2 battries.

450 Test Flight Slight Wag Full mp4 - YouTube



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