How NOT To Put A Nitro Engine Together!

[Tony]

As I'm sure everyone knows, the members of the forum got together and chipped in for a 600 size nitro heli for Rc-Help. Well I'm sad to say that it's been about 24 weeks and I'm still finding issues with it. So many issues that I'm about ready to scrap the whole project. Below is one of them that is putting me over the edge.

The Align 600 NSP came with an OS 55HZ-H engine. Great engine from what I have heard, but there just wasn't something right about it. I couldn't put my finger on it though. Well, on the second hover, the flight after the first hover where I was chasing down vibrations, the muffler came loose, the engine leaned WAY out, RPM shot WAY up and I all but killed the piston ring. Not a big deal, hone the cyl, put a new ring in it and break the engine in again as if it were new.

Well that is all and well, but I have to get the head off first. For this, I have to put some heat to it, get it over 600º just to bust the red thread lock loose, or so I thought. So, I put the heat to it (video to come). Got the head loose, and let it cool.

Once it was cool enough to handle, I put it on my desk and we started taking it apart. Now, the first thing to take out is the sleeve. Most engines, the sleeve is a tight fit, and you need to put a towel or a zip tie in one of the ports and turn the crankshaft to push it up. Tried that, didn't move. Screw it, put a pair of pliars on the crank, broke the zip tie. That is when I noticed it.

In the picture below, you can see that the sleeve is NOT LINED UP with the pin!!! This is why the engine felt off to me, the ports are not lined up!




That's when I noticed THIS!!!


THEY USED A DAMN PAIR OF PLIARS TO REMOVE THE SLEEVE!!! You NEVER do this!!!

Here are a couple shots of the sleeve. At this point, I was thinking that MAYBE I could still salvage the engine. Hone it, put in a new ring and break it in again.



Here are some shots of all 4 ports. 3 intake, and the exhaust. As you can see, there is a pattern on them showing how far the sleeve was twisted!





This is what seals the fate of the block. The asshat put the sleeve in, didn't locate the pin to the sleeve and pushed the pin flush with the block!


Then guess what I found? Yup, he didn't locate the piston ring either! Thus causing the ring to push the locating pin into the piston!



So what happens when you don't use after run oil and over heat your engine? (it was like this before I got it!)



Yup, Crank covered in rust! Also notice the scarring on the smooth area where the bearing rides!

Here is the crank pin where the piston rod rides. No, that is not a "short & curley", it's a piece of lint off my rag lmao.


Yup, LOTS of scaring there as well. Crank is pretty much trashed!


Here is what the rear bearing looks like!


Then I started looking inside the block. The jackhole not only used pliers to remove the sleeve, but he twisted the ever loving crap out of it while doing so thus damaging the block!





IMO, this engine is a total loss. And I have not even gotten to the carb yet to tear it down.

This was my mistake for not tearing it apart when I first got it, but I didn't want to risk damaging it if it was perfectly fine. Well, I should have. No, I won't check it next time because there will never be a next time. buying used CRAP is not going ot happen again for me. New only from now on.

The moral of the story is this, don't ever force these engines together! Because this is what you will end up with. A nice $300 paper weight! It's going to look good sitting on my desk! Because that is all it's good for now.

 

[Westy]

WE fix stuff worse than that here ... We did not use to have the supply chains for new parts.... so we had to improvise and machine parts.

can you buy oversize sleeves and get the block line bored? 0.010" ?

You should be able to get the locating pin out as is it only a roll pin.... and EZI-out should do it .... or a ground down lathe tool.

Are the Dry Sleeves an interference fit?
You could also use some metal paste and then machine it back to the standard size.

you can easily clean that rust up on the crank ... I would tape up the bearing surfaces and give the rust on the crank counter balance as glass bead blast ... or use dry ice....

So you could only really be up for a Piston and a Ring ... and hone and a new pin to locate the Sleeve.

We used to salvage Cummins V8 Engine blocks that had electrolosis damage and leaking water into the sump .... using metal based metal paste and either machine the seal o-ring grooves or hand sand them to take o-rings again.... saved thousands ... (Probably could not buy an engine block in New Zealand anyway).

You Might even be able to get that Piston Ring locating pin out and put a new one in.

There is hope still ... all my may be up for is a ring and time ... and a hardened Roll pin The Right Size

 

[Tony]

I'm going to try like hell to pull the pins out to locate everything. But, the pictures are showing these things much larger than they actually are. There is not an EZ-Out small enough to get in them. You can't even fit a sewing needle in them they are so small. And yes, the sleeve is an interference fit, but shouldn't be as tight as it is, or was. If I can get the pins out just enough to hold everything, then I will see about taking some emery cloth to the block to allow the sleeve to go in. And those gouges you see, were done by the last owner that tried to use a screw driver to push the sleeve out. Damaging the sleeve. I may be able to emery the outer part of the sleeve and make it work, but I'm going to be worried about it every time I run it.

As for the crank, the rust I'm not worried about, it's the surfaces where the bearings ride as well as the connecting rod.

 

[Westy]

just run some 1200 wet and dry on the bearing surfaces .... or a fine linishing strip.

Alternatively .. if you cannot get the alignment pin out ... Drill it and fill and refit a new one.

 

[Tony]

I would if I could find one that small. I'm looking for a VERY small screw that has a VERY fine thread in hopes of grabbing it and pulling it up a hair. All I need is 1/4mm for it to work. But, I'm not worried about the sleeve, I'm more worried about the piston. Hell, I'm thinking about just putting it back together and running it until it throws a rod through the block! Not seeing much else that can be done with it. I would hate for this thing to just sit here and do nothing. And knowing what is wrong with it, I can't just sell it and pass the buck. I'm stuck with it now.

 

[Westy]

Can you use a nail file ground down..... ??? or the prong on a fork ground down to fit? or a small Screw driver perhaps?

Even if you can get it in and line it up with the slot in the roll pin and drive it in a bit ... then try to uncrew it out to where you want it.... using the slot in the Roll Pin.... (Will be hard as you are forcing the spring loaded pin to go even more hard out against the walls of the hole. Worth a go ... is is stuffed now ..... so you cant really stuff it anymore!

 

[Tony]

Nope, too small. I have some really small screw drivers, but none are small enough to get in there. And if I grind one down small enough, it would be too weak to actually pull it out. I think I'm just going to throw it back together and run the ever loving crap out of it. The head should hold it in place. Should... But, need to remove the rear bearing first and clean it. Losing LOTS of power with all of the gummy crap in the bearings.

 

[Graham Lawrie]

just run some 1200 wet and dry on the bearing surfaces .... or a fine linishing strip.

Alternatively .. if you cannot get the alignment pin out ... Drill it and fill and refit a new one.

Just making my way through this post and was going to say the same as Westy, wet and dry, we use it in work all the time The engine is in some mess and it is telling a story for sure now. Looks like the guy who had it before you did not have a clue. I have seen similar damage in my work career, and the lack of oil lubrication in the engine is more than evident(good pictures Tony).
A LOT of time and effort will get this back, but given the cost of replacement(new) i would say it is the only option.
If it were mine, i enjoy this kind of work so i would potter away at it and get it done, but i would be tempted to get a new one as well.

This has been a nightmare for you Tony, massive headache and a total downer. Everything that could go wrong has. Makes buying second hand stuff a nightmare

 

[Tony]

The pictures were taken with my Note II, pretty good for a cell phone. But you are right, the only logical option is to just repair it and get it running. And that is what I'm working on. I have the piston and rod back together, but need to sand the crank and sleeve, pull the bearings and clean them, then lube everything and stuff it in the heli to see if it will all come apart when I hit 100% throttle. As if this thing didn't scare me enough, now I will be waiting for an engine failure... I have my paper sack ready, because the helicopter is going down...

 

[heli-maniac]

The pictures were taken with my Note II, pretty good for a cell phone. But you are right, the only logical option is to just repair it and get it running. And that is what I'm working on. I have the piston and rod back together, but need to sand the crank and sleeve, pull the bearings and clean them, then lube everything and stuff it in the heli to see if it will all come apart when I hit 100% throttle. As if this thing didn't scare me enough, now I will be waiting for an engine failure... I have my paper sack ready, because the helicopter is going down...

Ok time to get Harsh about this
Dont even think of putting that back together and putting it back in that heli just to crash it and loose everything that the members put in it
Yes i would be mad about it to Hell i have a brand new Heli kit that had to sit for 6 months for bad brand new parts but it flies now
you should just part it out and sell it and buy something the members can get the use out of

 

[Tony]

Not harsh at all. In the other section, everyone is saying "just fly it, what happens, happens". In all honesty, I have no idea where to even start with parting this thing out. I mean, who needs a used main gear? Who needs a flybar head? The "other" forum is just full of low ballers. So that forum is out. That is where people go to find a killer deal. Like I found on a Synergy lol. Wish I had the money for that. But, I feel where you are coming from, the heli is in trouble, I think more trouble than it cna get out of. I'm glad my "spidey" sense kept telling me something was wrong though. Otherwise, I would have just tightened the muffler and kept flying. Not being able to tune the engine (carb was a little clogged as well), tail slipping and so on. I will see what I can do in breaking the heli down and maybe putting in on eBay. Maybe I can get the money back that we have in it. I doubt it, but here's hoping!

 

[cn63bug]

That sucks! I'm sorry for all the trouble you're having Tony. I loved nitro, but this was the main reason that I got out of nitro. I encountered far too many problems from people not breaking engines in properly and just not really knowing what they were doing. Decided to go electric and never looked back. I will say that from my experience (cars, not helicopters), that it usually was better to replace the motor as the headache of trying to rebuild and the costs that were involved, new was better. Again, sorry man, I feel your frustration with it.

 

[coolgabsi]

That sucks! I'm sorry for all the trouble you're having Tony. I loved nitro, but this was the main reason that I got out of nitro. I encountered far too many problems from people not breaking engines in properly and just not really knowing what they were doing. Decided to go electric and never looked back. I will say that from my experience (cars, not helicopters), that it usually was better to replace the motor as the headache of trying to rebuild and the costs that were involved, new was better. Again, sorry man, I feel your frustration with it.

While this motor is dead.. Yes and not worth fixing .. I don't think

But nitro engines are fun to work on .!! simple ... I have rebuilt three for the helis and love them every time I do it. I got a 90 size waiting for me to rebuild it I am super excited and waiting for the time when I can do it all in one to!

Fly safe!! have fun!

 

[breeze400]

I think I would try to drill out that pin and install a new one myself. Has for the rest all I can say is hmmmmm! Yes we all jumped the gun on this one for sure! Lesson learned. We should have just waited and bought a new kit!

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Is there anyway of getting to the pin hole from the crank side of it and push it back up and out?

 

[Westy]

Not harsh at all. In the other section, everyone is saying "just fly it, what happens, happens". In all honesty, I have no idea where to even start with parting this thing out. I mean, who needs a used main gear? Who needs a flybar head? The "other" forum is just full of low ballers. So that forum is out. That is where people go to find a killer deal. Like I found on a Synergy lol. Wish I had the money for that. But, I feel where you are coming from, the heli is in trouble, I think more trouble than it cna get out of. I'm glad my "spidey" sense kept telling me something was wrong though. Otherwise, I would have just tightened the muffler and kept flying. Not being able to tune the engine (carb was a little clogged as well), tail slipping and so on. I will see what I can do in breaking the heli down and maybe putting in on eBay. Maybe I can get the money back that we have in it. I doubt it, but here's hoping!

Like the Deal of the Decade on a NEW Trex 700E with all electronics ... only 3/4 assembled. all electronics still in packets ... 750 SHipped!

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What Size is the roll pin Tony? the Piston ring one will be located so the ring does not rotate and coming into the path of one of the ports while RPM'ing up and down the liner bore.... you could .... beat it in .... and drill a new hole in another location say 180º form the exisiting one.

 

[Tony]

That sucks! I'm sorry for all the trouble you're having Tony. I loved nitro, but this was the main reason that I got out of nitro. I encountered far too many problems from people not breaking engines in properly and just not really knowing what they were doing. Decided to go electric and never looked back. I will say that from my experience (cars, not helicopters), that it usually was better to replace the motor as the headache of trying to rebuild and the costs that were involved, new was better. Again, sorry man, I feel your frustration with it.

Nah man, I have no issue with nitro. I love nitro. The smell, the sound, the power, it's just how the hobby should be and was the way the hobby was before there were good batteries. Now days though, it's just so much easier to toss in a battery rather than fueling up a vehicle, grabbing the starter and hoping your glow plug is still good. Then there is the worry about the flame-out's, just one of those things with nitro that makes it a challenge.

While this motor is dead.. Yes and not worth fixing .. I don't think

But nitro engines are fun to work on .!! simple ... I have rebuilt three for the helis and love them every time I do it. I got a 90 size waiting for me to rebuild it I am super excited and waiting for the time when I can do it all in one to!

Fly safe!! have fun!

Can I get it running? Yes. Do I think the damage is close to being fatal, yeah maybe. But I'm not sure I want to risk putting this in the 600 just to have the engine come apart in the air and take out yet another $300 worth of stuff when it slams into the ground.

I think I would try to drill out that pin and install a new one myself. Has for the rest all I can say is hmmmmm! Yes we all jumped the gun on this one for sure! Lesson learned. We should have just waited and bought a new kit!

- - - Updated - - -

Is there anyway of getting to the pin hole from the crank side of it and push it back up and out?

I dont' have any micro drill bits. Drilling it out is next to impossible. I think the pictures gave this thing a much larger look than it actually is. And unfortunately no, there is no way to access it from the other side. It's a blind hole. You would think they would be smart and only drill it so deep lol. And they may have. But with as tight as this head was (and I found NO thread locker on it!), it could have buried its self in the metal.

Like the Deal of the Decade on a NEW Trex 700E with all electronics ... only 3/4 assembled. all electronics still in packets ... 750 SHipped!

- - - Updated - - -

What Size is the roll pin Tony? the Piston ring one will be located so the ring does not rotate and coming into the path of one of the ports while RPM'ing up and down the liner bore.... you could .... beat it in .... and drill a new hole in another location say 180º form the exisiting one.

The pin is like .5mm, it's small. The ring needs the pin to keep it from spinning. It's a must have item. All 2 strokes, without over lapping rings will have it.

 

[Tony]

Here, maybe this will put it into a better perspective for everyone. This is an American penny. The hole actually looks bigger because I have tried to dig it out. It's not happening.

 

[breeze400]

What about a engine shop may be for a few bucks they could get it out?

 

[heli-maniac]

stick it in the freezer it will shrink the roll pin or get some 134a and blast it with that

 

[Tony]

Even then, we still have to look at the big picture. The bearings are on their last leg, because of the sanding needed to get the sleeve back in, that is going to cause a gap between the sleeve and block thus reducing efficiency. The crank is going to have to be polished, and that could throw it out of round and off balance, the piston ring needs a pin, the list goes on and on. I'm just going to put it all back together, make a nice acrylic box and put the engine out of it's mysery so that no one else has to deal with it!