So.. What do you think of these rtf kits that are being sold for 450 size up... ?

[coolgabsi]

Ok .. so I have thought about it a lot, and just seeing how many accidents are happening now a days due to a RC heli.. heard a few more locally.. and it has me thinking.. Part is just people being total DUSHes.. some... its anaware public.... Thinking of it as a TOY. So .. are these rtf Kits that are being sold by many of the companies.. Company I wouldnt name.. but you know who.. NOT banging on this company .. NO.. but the way these products are being sold now a days.. makes me nervous..


Why? any bird 450 size and over needs care in building, and there is a factor of intimidation that comes long with it, when you build it, you wanna know, did you do things right? When you buy an unbuilt kit, you ask questions, you are unsure, you build community. you learn, you understand the mechanics, you see that its not a TOY.. its a machine, and yes, when you spec your bird, and install the power plant in it, you understand.. that OK.. its got power..

Do I really want a noob to pick a prebuilt 550 or 600 or 700 and just take it home, think of it as a toy, and FIRE it up .. and then hurt / kill someone? I dont know about that..

I am not exactly sure how the 700's are being delivered, but 450 and 500's are all prebuilt, just setup radio and FLY.. right? if you get BNF .. the radio come pre programed.. OK.. so what is the difference between buying a coax at the mall, or buying a more expensive one at the hobby shop ?

The hobby shop owner, if they really care, would try to steer the noob customer clear of the 700 pre built size product.. but does that always happen?

A friend in VA went to a hobby shop and reserved himself a 700x.. This is a guy, who doesnt know R in RC.. is there something wrong with not knowing ? NO.. Is there something wrong with not knowing... and getting in your hand a 700 with a 7+ hp motor and carbon blades, and putting it in your back yard to hover.. I think there is ..

just ranting here.. thinking outloud.. what do you think ?

 

[Tony]

Gaba, I have been saying this since they started out with RTF 450's and 250's. It's a stupid move because people are going to get hurt/killed with these machines because they do not realize what they can do. It's idiotic that people in these companies will actually sell this, but in their mind, they are only there to make a buck. They are not on the end of the line like RCH where we have to talk that customer down and get them back to the basics that so many are skipping.

 

[murankar]

After listen to rc heli nation from last week I have some input. This not to discount what legitimate claims you made.

This is in regards to the 700x which Horizon Hobbies is making and selling as a pro kit. This kit is a complete assemble job. Is it a true rtf, maybe. I am not clear on the contents of the combo kit in regards to the ESC. I know that the marketing rep was interviewed on the pod cast. He at no time said this kit pre built or is for a beginner.

I feel that the local hobby shop needs to ensure they are looking out for the customer. if a customer makes a claim that they are new and wants a 700x then the sales rep needs to educate the buyer.

I personally see my old lhs turn down a sale to a noob that wanted a nitro .50 class. They could not personally allow a noob buy something so big without the skill set. Will this happen all the time, no. Will people get their hands on equipment that is more than their skill set, yes. At that point its on them. This hurts the hobby in so many ways.

IRCHA has made it possible for people to get a decent sized damage maker buy at a cost. That cost is through the AMA and IRCHA.

In order to curb such disasters we (the rc community) need to educate the public on the hobby. I fully agree and will support the host of rchn after his claims last week. He has volunteered his time to conduct workshops and classes at his local hobby town USA. His first work shop will be with building the 700x and some other beginner lessons.

I hope I am not off track on this. Lee thanks for the info on rchn. Its a great pod cast even though the hosts are a tad overboard on their language.

 

[xokia]

I'm kinda split on the matter. Yea a 700 is dangerous and can kill. But so can a 6000lb SUV sold to a 16 year old. You can't prevent stupid, stupidity will always win out. People have to be responsible for their own actions. The cost of a 700 kinda already puts it out of the reach of the general novice. Most aren't going to buy such a large expensive toy without any knowledge on how to operate it.

 

[Slobberdog]

I'm kinda split on the matter. Yea a 700 is dangerous and can kill. But so can a 6000lb SUV sold to a 16 year old. You can't prevent stupid, stupidity will always win out. People have to be responsible for their own actions. The cost of a 700 kinda already puts it out of the reach of the general novice. Most aren't going to buy such a large expensive toy without any knowledge on how to operate it.

but you have to have a licience to drive the SUV, and by extension passed a test, yes that person might then drive like a prat but they know how to drive, you could go into a model shop and buy a heli be it 450 or 700 class go charge your battery and hurt someone, mello dramatic maybe but it is what it is.

would people buy them if they were not pre assembled maybe not, its quick and convienient when they are RTF, and thats what draws people in, " Oh it cant be that hard to fly " I think I fancy trying that, there are plenty of not to scupilous people out there who will sell someone anything, but how could it be policed, that is the question.......

 

[coolgabsi]

Uri ... I see what you are saying but before I knew RCHELP I didnt know any one else flew RC helis. I didnt know this was a hobby. I didnt know RCHN .. I didint know ANYTHING.. see what I am saying, like I have a classic car now, I dont even know the community and workshops and everything with this "hobby" ... I wouldnt know who to go to .. to ask..

Hobby stores.. good ones will tell you not to.. But you are leaving it the hands of an individual who might make a bigger sale/ profit selling a 700, to sell say an MSR. YEs there are a ton of nice shops out there, but if a buyer wants BIG.. and thats what he wants, there is only so much a shop keeper can say except "I am not responsible if something wrong happens " ..

which goes into what XOKIA said, yes, big expensive vehicles in hands of teens isnt good, but there are parents, and the liscencing agency involved. If tey pass the drivers ed.. thats a learnign curve .. no matter how much they retained, they were made aware, and are held responsible.. and same with parents being held responsible for the kid that drives, and parents know cars..

In case of a BNF RC heli or plane.. which is being flown by an individual who hasnt had to consult anyone ( or hasnt felt a need to), and learn properly.. makes me a little squemish is all

NOt saying that there needs to be a CONTROLLING authority on al lthis at all.. but the selling companies could become a filter to the one who buys it

So, like the 130x was never released as RTF (atleast till I had it) .. why .. They thought it was a bad idea for a beginner fresh noob to buy it.. This is something said by HH itself on a forum. THey wanted to try limit this to people who knew just a little about helis or were willing enough to learn , so would have to get a remote seperately.. and would have to program it.. and such.. (ofcourse lowere pricing is another factor) .. but I thought that was GENIOUS.. if a new person goes out to buy a bird.. more than likely.. they want something that has all in one box, open , charge, hook up and GO! ..

I saw the 700X manual, and yes it is a KIT.. which is Good.. no issues there then .. but talkin about 450 flying in a house.. y'all have seen what kind of mistakes I have made.. and I have been in this for 3 years now ..

what is stopping an individual to take home a brand new 450 charge it up and spool it in the living room : ..

Hey the mall helis this size can be flown indoors

 

[stokke]

A buddy of mine saw me fly the other day. The day after we met again, this time he brought a 3ch toy as he thought flying looked like alot of fun. He could also inform me that he had placed an order for a "Real" heli on eBay. I was like "OMG, now he probably got himself some 450 clone crap", but no; he had ordered an RTF 550 Align kit. Pre-built and bound. Just charge the batteries and go fly!

He sent me the link, so I could have look to determine wether he had made a stupid purchase. Turns out, they build the bird for you after you place the order. And not ONE warning about the dangers of this hobby product!

 

[murankar]

It can't and that's the problem. Look at the program cake boss when buddy tried to fly a 450 in the bakery. That ended in disaster.

 

[Slobberdog]

A buddy of mine saw me fly the other day. The day after we met again, this time he brought a 3ch toy as he thought flying looked like alot of fun. He could also inform me that he had placed an order for a "Real" heli on eBay. I was like "OMG, now he probably got himself some 450 clone crap", but no; he had ordered an RTF 550 Align kit. Pre-built and bound. Just charge the batteries and go fly!

He sent me the link, so I could have look to determine wether he had made a stupid purchase. Turns out, they build the bird for you after you place the order. And not ONE warning about the dangers of this hobby product!

Marius, ebay is and always will be about the money, traders dont care about the end user or what will happen when the person gets the goods, and the little line that gets by goat up "due to the nature of the hobby, no returns" basically got your goods I dont want to hear from you again unless your gonna buy something else from me,

your friend needs educating and directing, which I am in no doubt you have tried to explain to him,

 

[RMB677]

Today's attitude is sell it and forget it. As long as the lawyers put in a catch phrase limiting, or exempting. the manufacturer from liability is all the marketing people care about. Also with most everything being manufactured in China good luck with an international lawsuite.

 

[pvolcko]

RTF/BNF for 450 is okay with me. It's a good starter size in terms of investment and flight behavior. They are not toys, but neither are weed trimmers. I think the issue comes mostly from the fact that people can buy these things online from relatively disinterested resellers and retailers without having ever talked with a real person that knows something about them. LHS is more likely than not going to get a feel for what the person's interest level is, will warn them about flying indoors or near people or anything you care for really (car, house, boat, first born daughter, etc.), give them the whole "this is not a toy" schpiel. Online that doesn't happen. The only chance people have in that situation to get "the talk" is if they participate on forums like this, know someone that flys already and is guiding them through it all, or if they actually read the warning at the front of the manual (fat chance).

RTF/BNF for 500+ is odd to me. 550+ is very odd. At that point you're making a pretty heavy investment. I purposely didn't want to buy a pre-built one in this size. 550X I bought specifically because it was a kit and I wanted to build it. 700E I bought of you, Gaba, I asked to be broken down both for shipping ease and because I wanted to build it. I suppose I can understand someone wanting to buy pre-built because they don't have the time to put into building one. Maybe they have a fun fly or competition coming up and they are short on time, maybe family is coming into town and they want to impress with a new bird, who knows. I can get that though. But just about all else, I don't get it. At that size you're talking about a lot of money and you probably are "into" the hobby. Why wouldn't you want to build it yourself?

That said, cost is a big limiter here. You're going to be paying out for it and that is going to serve to let people know intrinsically that this is not a toy. If there are any doubts the first time they spin it up, if they aren't stepping back in awe of the sound and visually compelling buzzsaw that is the main rotor spinning at 1500+ RPM then they are beyond help anyway. And there are those people out there. They buy high priced "toys", be it heli, sports car, super bike, etc. and don't care about what they're doing or their impact on others around them. I'm not sure you can solve that with a talk or a bunch of bold, red warnings in a user manual. In the vast majority of cases, though, I have to think the price to entry is great at weeding out the uninitiated and the "toy" seekers.

And again, who you're buying a pre-built from matters. If you're buying from a person who hand builds them and sells them, again, you're likely to get some of "the talk" at least. Even online or ebay, such sellers care about what they're putting out there and don't want to see it destroyed by a noob (nor get an phone call or email from a lawyer about your product maiming a 8 year old). They're likely going to be put up all kinds of warnings on the sale page about it not being a toy, make sure you know how to fly first, don't call me when you crash it, these things can take heads off if flown around people, etc. If they're being put together by a horde of sweatshop workers in Malaysia then you're not going to see the warnings and we're back to disinterested seller territory.

 

[xokia]

which goes into what XOKIA said, yes, big expensive vehicles in hands of teens isnt good, but there are parents, and the liscencing agency involved. If tey pass the drivers ed.. thats a learnign curve .. no matter how much they retained, they were made aware, and are held responsible.. and same with parents being held responsible for the kid that drives, and parents know cars..

What I was trying to get at.......when I was young you could walk into a car dealership at 18 plop down the cash for a car and walk out the door. If you were 16 you could still do this if you found shady dealerships which about 80% are. They do not care that you even have a licence and no one checks that you have insurance if you pay cash. Some states do not even require you have insurance to drive a car. And in the states that do people break that rule every day.

When you are talking about a 700 class helicopter you are in the price range of a cheap used car. Both can be deadly in the wrong hands. You really cant prevent stupid because stupid always finds a way. While I dont like the idea of someone that has no clue what they are doing going in and picking up a 700 heli. I don't know that making them build it makes any of us safer. Its an artificial road block that doesn't do anything. What prevents that same person from going on their favorite heli forum and buying a used BNF 700 in unknown condition?

Although I do agree it probably shouldn't be as simple as plug in a battery and go. I like the idea of the user having to at least set up the remote. While setting up a remote is easy to us a complete newb would likely need help and seek out assistance. Which at some point hopefully someone tells them the dangers.

 

[idon'tknow!]

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