I am trying to decide which flybarless gyro to buy. Does anyone have experience with thse two gyros. Does the ZYX have any advantages over the Kbar or viceyvercy? Also is the microbeast worth the money? I am mainly a sport flyer and haven done any 3d stuff. I have a ton of experience with fixed wing but I'm kinda new to heli's, but I love 'em.
Tony
Staff member
I am about to shoot a review video on the below gyro. It is a BeastX clone and if you run Spektrum, I'm trying to get my hands on an adapter to only use a satellite receiver. From what I hear, it is fantastic, and is the size of the 3GX which means it will fit inside the frame of a Pro Align helicopter.
TGZ380 3 Axis Gyro Flybarless System for Align T-REX RC Helicopter
TGZ380 3 Axis Gyro Flybarless System for Align T-REX RC Helicopter
The radio and receiver are both Futaba. I have several 7 channel receivers and a 10 channel transmitter so I'd really like to use what I have. It's a good system even with a sailplane at 1500 feet 2 miles away it's rock solid. I've put too much money into this heli as it is, buying a new transmitter/recvr just isn't going to happen. I read a couple of threads where people had DOA problems with the TGZ gyro. Who knows I wouldn't be surprised if they plugged the battery in reversed polarity or maybe it was an early production run. BG has the TGZ's in stock in their USA warehouse for the same price as the Kbar. I haven't found any one who uses the new Tarot gyro. It's 10 bucks more than the other two. Maybe I should just get a beastmaster. They're pricey though. Now I mostly need to find a battery that will fit inside the frame of this 450l. It's skinny in there.
Tony
Staff member
The 450L can house a full size Ikon. I have one and this is the gyro that I have under the main shaft inside the frame.
As stated, I have not reviewed the gyro I linked to yet. I have not even put power to it yet. I was just going off of the reviews I have read. I'm hoping to get the video for it shot in a week or so. I will also be doing a new tail servo review and a DFC head review at the same time that I received for this helicopter.
As stated, I have not reviewed the gyro I linked to yet. I have not even put power to it yet. I was just going off of the reviews I have read. I'm hoping to get the video for it shot in a week or so. I will also be doing a new tail servo review and a DFC head review at the same time that I received for this helicopter.
Where did you find a battery for it? So far All the ones that will fit are out of stock. That's why I said it's skinny in there. The battery options are limited. It's a clever idea to put the battery inside the frame but it limits you to narrow batteries. That's the only complaint I have about this heli.
Tony
Staff member
This helicopter was actually given to the website by one of our moderators, URI. It didn't have anything with it and I put the L frame into a stock Pro helicopter and used all of the 3s packs I already had. So with my current setup, I am only running a 3s 2200mah pack. Not on 6s that this helicopter was designed for.
That might be a good idea because I've been searching for hours and I can't find a 6s pack that will fit. I figure it has to be no larger than 32x38x110mm. It could be a bit longer but I haven't found anything close except at GensAce. They make the battery but there is no info about where and when it will be shipped or even if it is in stock. I've never dealt with GensAce so I don't know what to expect and they don't tell you on their web site. It's doesn't inspire trust.
Tony
Staff member
Gens Ace used to be the number one battery to have. This was before Glacier, Pulse and the like were the go to brand. Very good batteries. Just remember, if you do decide to go the 3S route, make sure you are using the 3400kv motor rated for 3s. And also remember if you are still swinging the larger 360mm blades and are using the longer L tail, the motor will get a little hotter than a 6s motor that is made for those blades. I'm still running 325mm blades and using the stock 450 Pro tail and tail blades.
Smoggie
Well-Known Member
I've used a ZYX (V1) and several Kbars and Vbars. I'd take the Kbar any day. It's a lot easier to set up and easier to get end user support for because it's very popular, the software is far more intuitive and it flies better. The only real plus for the ZYX that i can think of is that it's a 'genuine' product compared to the kbar which is a 'pirate' copy of the Vbar.
murankar
Staff member
there are much better options but it will get the job done. K-Bar works great but keep in mind the hardware its self is geeting old and needs updated. If your not running power hungry servos then the k-bar will be fine. The power issue is with the mini which happens to be very popular even in the V-Bar mini. If you run the full size you will be fine.
I'll be running all KST servos 215 cyclics and a 515 tail at 6 volts until I get a hi voltage receiver. I also ordered the Kbar mini. I could buy the big one and sell the mini if necessary. Has anyone ever tried to jumper power to the servos? That could be easily done. I assume the problem is the size of the traces on the PC board in the Kbar mini? A jumper could be done externally fairly easily. Do you think I will be okay as is? I'm not a 3d flyer in fact I am pretty new to helis so aerobatics will be far down the road. If my KST servos will be too much for the mini I should change to the larger one. There are a ton of options and I got the Kbar because I've read allot of good things about it. If there is a newer better option I didn't find it.
Smoggie
Well-Known Member
Many people (including me) have used mini Vbars and Kbars on 700 size helis without any issue. In practice I've not found any problem even with standard servos. The only thing that you need to watch 'power wise' is if using Spektrum DSMX/DSM2 satellite receivers connected direct to the Vbar/Kbar. The Vbar/Kbar supply to satellites can be a bit weak leading to risk of 'brownout'. This is not an issue if you use a standard receiver and can in any case easily be fixed by running a capacitor in the system to smooth out voltage fluctuations.
For a 450 heli the mini size is the right choice, the full size would be awkward to fit. The mini can be used on big helis too but ideally for the big stuff you would use the full size. The main advantage in practice that I've found on the full size is that it has more connection ports so is easier to wire up. The remote sensor on the full size also means that the main unit can be mounted anywhere and in any orientation, which can help with wiring.
For a 450 heli the mini size is the right choice, the full size would be awkward to fit. The mini can be used on big helis too but ideally for the big stuff you would use the full size. The main advantage in practice that I've found on the full size is that it has more connection ports so is easier to wire up. The remote sensor on the full size also means that the main unit can be mounted anywhere and in any orientation, which can help with wiring.
I'll be using a Futaba R617FS receiver so I don't have to worry about any satellite receivers. I was thinking of getting a Hyperion 8 channel receiver so I could run everything at 7.4 volts, but I decided the extra $40 isn't worth it just to get another 100th of a second out of the servos. Perhaps when I start getting in to 3d that might change. So far everything is coming together nicely. The Gartt kit is beautiful and very well made. Frankly I don't know how they can make such a nice heli for 108 lousy bucks especially considering that the thing comes with all of the major components already assembled and lock-tighted. I'll post again after I've had a couple of flights. Thanks everyone for the tips.
murankar
Staff member
Go ahead and put a full set of BK 7000 series servos on a mini V. You will have issues, its a known problem by Mikado so they made the NEO. 700 class heli servos are hit and miss on a mini V-Bar, to include the mini K-Bar. Its not the voltage thats the issue, its nthe amp draw that will sut down the gyro. Now lets add on that one could be using a Spektrum sat which we all know will brown out really easy if the voltage sags to much.
Not saying that there is anything wrong with the gyro just know that the mini V and mini K-bar have limitations and they need to be respected.
On the plus side there is a work around the problem, provided you are using a standard RX. For anything 500 and smaller you should be fine with the gyro's power bus. THe biggest issues is in the 700 class arena.
Not saying that there is anything wrong with the gyro just know that the mini V and mini K-bar have limitations and they need to be respected.
On the plus side there is a work around the problem, provided you are using a standard RX. For anything 500 and smaller you should be fine with the gyro's power bus. THe biggest issues is in the 700 class arena.
It would be very simple to solder a wire inside the gyro to allow more current to get to the servos. An external jumper would also be easy to build if you know how to solder. For me this is all moot because I'm building a 450 class heli. I'm sure the current problem is due to the size of the traces on the kbar pc board. That's a very common problem for all tiny circuits. It can be fixed by adding two larger conductors soldered to the the pc board. Adding a small electrolytic capacitor (like 1000 mFd./15v) on the servo side of the buss would help allot too. I have tons of caps in my parts boxes, I think I will stick one in there. The cap only weighs a gram or so and is small enough to go almost anywhere on the heli. I'll put the biggest one I have that will fit. Maybe I can get a 4700 mFd or larger in there. That's probably a good idea in general. It's helps to smooth out ripple and noise too. Caps are cheap so why not. Even a super-capacitor would be easy to fit in there somewhere, but I don't have any supercaps. I saw a set up where a guy was using a bank of super caps to replace the battery in his car, it worked great.
Smoggie
Well-Known Member
You are on the right track k8idx, for sure for a 450 the Kbar is perfectly fine with any sevos. I usually fit a cap to help prevent brownout. Generally it's fine without one, but they are cheap so why not.
Uri, if you have any reference data from Mikado on the issue you refer to I'd be interested to have a read. I know Mikado did a bunch of testing do address issues with voltage drops due to high currents, but this was nothing to do with the mini Vbar. It was weaknesses in the BEC under high load that caused problems. In fact they didn't even use the mini Vbar in testing, they used a standard Vbar Blueline. These were the tests that proved the effectiveness of a capacitor in smoothing out these voltage fluctuations. This is the testing I'm thinking about: Power supply | VStabi
Uri, if you have any reference data from Mikado on the issue you refer to I'd be interested to have a read. I know Mikado did a bunch of testing do address issues with voltage drops due to high currents, but this was nothing to do with the mini Vbar. It was weaknesses in the BEC under high load that caused problems. In fact they didn't even use the mini Vbar in testing, they used a standard Vbar Blueline. These were the tests that proved the effectiveness of a capacitor in smoothing out these voltage fluctuations. This is the testing I'm thinking about: Power supply | VStabi
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Smoggie
Well-Known Member
PS.. Uri,
I fount the official Vbar compatibility chart and I think i might know where the confusion is coming from: Versions overview | VStabi
So the 'mini Vbar Blueline' is listed as suitable for all helis, even those greater than 1000mm. However the much older black mini Vbar was not suitable for large helis. This limitation of the old black version could well have been the current rating issue you refer to. I've never even seen a black mini Vbar, they must have been phased out several years ago. All the mini Vbar's I've used or seen are the Blueline type, and so suitable for even the largest helis according to Mikado themselves.
With a Kbar because it's a clone made to unknown standards you never can tell for 100% sure. The Kbar was cloned off the mini Vbar Blueline but if the cloners made the power bus as 'beefy' is anyone's guess. All i can say is I've never experienced any issues and I dont know of anyone who has.
I fount the official Vbar compatibility chart and I think i might know where the confusion is coming from: Versions overview | VStabi
So the 'mini Vbar Blueline' is listed as suitable for all helis, even those greater than 1000mm. However the much older black mini Vbar was not suitable for large helis. This limitation of the old black version could well have been the current rating issue you refer to. I've never even seen a black mini Vbar, they must have been phased out several years ago. All the mini Vbar's I've used or seen are the Blueline type, and so suitable for even the largest helis according to Mikado themselves.
With a Kbar because it's a clone made to unknown standards you never can tell for 100% sure. The Kbar was cloned off the mini Vbar Blueline but if the cloners made the power bus as 'beefy' is anyone's guess. All i can say is I've never experienced any issues and I dont know of anyone who has.
Not to butt in but it would be easy to find out. When I get my kbar mini in a day or two I'll open the case and look at the traces. I can tell you how much current they can handle. I have a meter that measures siemens which is the reciprocal of resistance. Anyway it wont be difficult to find out in case anyone cares.