Quad Reversed motor and propeller orientation?

[kratata]

I had asked this question on another site and was basically called a very silly silly. Maybe they didn't quite understand though. Anywho, I'd like your opinion.

So I somehow ended up with my motor orientation opposite from most common. This is mine: And you probably already know the most common one is: View attachment 17162
Having the orientation opposite from the most common would not cause a quad itself to spin on takeoff though, right? Cause that's what mines doing. I would think it would work fine either way. Please let me know. In my thread on the other site I was looking for ideas on why my quad was spinning on takeoff. Every finger pointed to motor and prop orientation, as it is a common mistep, and my orientation is a little foreign. But just because mine is opposite from the most common orientation, doesnt mean it won't work right? There's still 2 cw and 2 ccw motors. I would think my orientation is not a problem. The reason I was seen as a silly was because I was sure it was motor 4 (from my quad picture) causing the quad to spin, because upon plugging the lipo in it would arm about a second after the other three motors. I also noticed that it spins up right after the others, and stop spinning right before the others. Almost like it's not getting as much power. I don't know how to fix this besides replacing the motor and ESC maybe. Could it be from me leaving all the becs in on my emax linear escs? I heard yes and no for leaving all linear becs in, so I just left em all in.
I assure you, 110 percent, that the props and motor orientation are correct according to my diagram.The quad will fly up without flipping, but it spins right from the start and ultimately ends up back on the ground. Here's a lovely video of my first maiden flight to demonstrate:[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Do7iaMPi01k[/video]

 

[Tony]

That quad is spinning at absolutely full yaw rate which means the quad is trying to correct in the opposite direction not knowing that it is actually causing the issue. Try putting the props on the correct way and see if that stops the issue. I will almost bet it does. These flight controllers need to know what way a prop is spinning and if it's spinning in reverse, then your video is the result.

 

[Smoggie]

yaw gyro response reversed?

 

[Tony]

There is no reversing option on these boards. Not until you get up into the high dollar controllers anyway. It's all caused by the props not being on the correct way. If I need to make a video, I can make a video but I assure you putting the props on the correct way will solve this issue.

 

[Smoggie]

I see Tony, yes i'm sure you are right. If the props are spinning the opposite way to what the controller expects then it will in effect reverse the yaw gyro compensation.

So to the OP.. Yes, your layout 'could' work in theory, but to make it work you would need to have the controller configured to reflect the unconventional prop direction, and from what Tony is saying (and I'm sure he's right) the controller doesnt have that facility.

 

[Admiral]

You can change the direction and position of any motor in Cleanflight using the MMIX function in the CLI, if I use a 4 in 1 ESC I change the motor layout to be sequential rather than 1,2,4,3 saves having lengthen the wires.

Tutorial: How To Remap Motor Outputs In Cleanflight / Betaflight - YouTube

This the standard MMIX for QuadX

Motor Thr Roll Pitch Yaw
#0: 1.000 -1.000 1.000 -1.000
#1: 1.000 -1.000 -1.000 1.000
#2: 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
#3: 1.000 1.000 -1.000 -1.000

You need to make a Custom MMIX, I believe it works from version 10 onwards.

To swap motor 3 & 4 which are numbered 2 to 3 just to confuse you you make line #2 1,1,-1,-1 and line #3 1,1,1,1,

 

[Tony]

Thanks for that Admiral. I have not played much with swapping motors and had no idea. But wouldn't you just swap the last digits for Yaw? Roll and pitch should work no matter what way the motors are spinning. Okay, I'm going to have to play with this lol.

 

[Admiral]

I think this MMix would fix Kratata's problem.

Standard MMix

Motor Thr Roll Pitch Yaw
#0: 1.000 -1.000 1.000 -1.000
#1: 1.000 -1.000 -1.000 1.000
#2: 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
#3: 1.000 1.000 -1.000 -1.000

MMix for Kratata
Motor Thr Roll Pitch Yaw
#0: 1.000 -1.000 -1.000 1.000
#1: 1.000 -1.000 1.000 -1.000
#2: 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
#3: 1.000 1.000 -1.000 -1.000

Basically swapping motors 3 & 4 and swapping Motors 1 & 2

Be interested to see if it works.

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Thanks for that Admiral. I have not played much with swapping motors and had no idea. But wouldn't you just swap the last digits for Yaw? Roll and pitch should work no matter what way the motors are spinning. Okay, I'm going to have to play with this lol.

Not sure I have only ever done it by swapping the whole line except on a tricopter where I reversed all the motors because I got confused between CW & CCW when I purchased the motors.

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Hi Tony, if your moving a motor from front to back the pitch will be reversed and has to change, same if you move a motor from Left to right the Roll will be reversed.

 

[Tony]

In his explanation though, he only reversed the rotation of the motors, not swapping them front to back. At least that is what I understood from it anyway.

So wouldn't all he has to do is take his settings from this...

Motor	Thr	Roll	Pitch	Yaw
#0	1.000	-1.000	1.000	-1.000
#1	1.000	-1.000	-1.000	1.000
#2	1.000	1.000	1.000	1.000
#3	1.000	1.000	-1.000	-1.000

to this...

Motor	Thr	Roll	Pitch	Yaw
#0	1.000	-1.000	1.000	1.000
#1	1.000	-1.000	-1.000	-1.000
#2	1.000	1.000	1.000	-1.000
#3	1.000	1.000	-1.000	1.000

Like I said, I'm going to have to play with this one now that you have brought this up lol.

 

[Stambo]

I totally agree with Tony's first comment.
For yaw the FC speeds up 2 motors and slows down 2 others diagonally.
The FC does not know which direction the motors are spinning, it just assumes you have them right.
Unless you can find in the FC how to actually reverse the yaw gyro response you have a problem.
I would go back several steps and put the motors how the FC wants to see them.
If any stick inputs are reversed change them in the TX.
Otherwise whenever you do a firmware update you may have to go through all this again.

 

[Admiral]

In his explanation though, he only reversed the rotation of the motors, not swapping them front to back. At least that is what I understood from it anyway.

Yeah your probably right only the direction has changed, so altering the last digit should fix the problem, the only way to find out is try it.
I also agree with Stambo I would would change every think back to the way it was designed to be.

 

[kratata]

I just switched the motor wires instead of using cleanflight. I had to move the motors anyways due to the cw and ccw prop nuts. The quads not spinning anymore, but now it's flipping on takeoff (it's not the propellers on wrong). I recalibrated all the escs but motor 4 is still arming and spinning after the others. I'm thinking of just buying another esc because I know its not the motor because I rotated them and the same esc is acting up.

 

[Stambo]

I just looked at your video again in slowmo and you do have quite a delay in your startup on one motor.
If you go to the motors tab in Cleanflight you can spin up the motors individually. (REMOVE THE PROPS FIRST!!)
Try it and see what numbers they start spinning at.

Is it easy to change the signal wire at the flight control, if so try swapping ESC 3 and 4 signal wires.
Don't try to fly it, just see if the slow start stays at 4 or moves to 3.
This will confirm whether the problem is FC or ESC.

 

[kratata]

Yep, it's the ESC. You had me scated about the FC

 

[kratata]

So after replacing the bad ESC, the same thing happens. I don't think its the fc, because I switched the ESC plugs in the fc, like you recommended. I measured the rpm at minimum throttle, and motors 1 and 4 read about 7,500. But as I left the throttle still, motors 3 and 2 started to speed up, all the way to 12,000 rpm. I'm clueless as to what the problem is. Could it be the 4 linear becs I left in? I heard yes and no for leaving linear type, so I just left em all in.

 

[Tony]

Easiest way to test is to unplug 3 of the red wires and test again. If it clears up the issue, then great. If not, it's back to the drawing board.

 

[kratata]

Well, I replaced the esc, redid all the wiring, and the same thing happens. I did notice that when calibrating the new esc it gave about twice as much throttle play then the others. I'm pretty sure its not the fc, because I put the new esc in a different spot then the other one I replaced it with, and the esc I just put in is the one acting up. The ESC is the exact same kind as the others. Could there be different internals, of the same ESC type? Maybe depending on the year it was made or something? I'm using Emax 12a escs btw.

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Oops. Forgot to mention ESC run on simonk.

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All of them.

 

[Tony]

Have you calibrated the ESC's together?

 

[kratata]

That was actually the original way I tried calibrating them, but when I plugged the nazeboard into the pc without the lipo plugged in, the quad would arm the motors with the power coming from the usb wich would not allow me to calibrate the motors. From all the video tutorials I've watched how to do it in clean flight, none of their motors armed until they plugged the lipo in. Couldn't find a fix for that either. Aye yi yi.

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Whenever I moved the motor tabs up the motors would spin with the power coming from the USB.

 

[kratata]

Exact same thing that happens to me.Cleanflight esc calibration fail! - YouTube