Quad Paul's Quad project

[pvolcko]

Okay, so I have a 350QX. But because of the molded countoured body and small size I'm finding it difficult to do much with it beyond what it is stock. I'm also not too impressed with it's ability to maintain level hover with the camera mounted to it's stock mount. Once I get the gimbal installed more toward the CoG I'm hoping it is less drifty. Also hoping the GPS has an easier time getting a lock with the camera on (I have wireless disabled, but it still seems to be interfering).

So, I'm gathering up pieces for a new quad.

My goals:
- 500+ size.
- More customizable platform from mounting components.
- Space for a larger battery pack setup for extended flight times.
- FPV camera and tx setup.
- GPS for return to home and hands off hovering and perhaps programmed waypoint flights.

What I've got for parts already:
- EagleTree OSD system. eLogger with GPS/compass and OSD expanders. Got it new but cheap off ebay.
- KK2 (think it's 2.1.5 version) controller is on the way (from China... couldn't find a reasonable price on a US sourced one). Already have the programmer cables.
- Unknowingly ordered up a minimosd. Have the programmer cables already. Didn't realize at the moment I ordered that this was designed to work with an APM based controller.
- Beholder lite gimbal and Hero3+ cam.
- 9 channel Rx (planning on having tilt/pitch control on the gimbal, going to test on my 350QX, supposedly can bind it in parallel with the 350QX when using DSM2 protocol).

What I'm thinking:
- Castle Creations quad pack of ESCs. Not sure what current rating I'll need yet. But I've had great luck with CC ESCs so far on my helis so thinking I'll keep it going.

My questions:
- I've got the KK2 on the way and the Eagle Tree OSD system, but I can easily go APM and utilize that minimOSD instead and pick up a GPS/compass module for it. Which is better? Looks like APM/minimOSD route has more capabilities, but maybe it makes sense to stick with the eagletree + KK2 combo to start off with. I can resell the minimOSD or hold it until a later build (maybe a hex?).
- What frame should I get? I'm just starting to look into this. I'm not looking to custom build a frame this time around, but I could see buying a frame and buying optional mounting surfaces or gimbal mounting rigs as needed. Looking to have 6-8" height from the landing skids/stilts/ground up to the gimbal mounting plate/location. Maybe a vibration isolated plate for mounting gyro/controller and cameras.
- Is there a good one stop shop for fasteners, silcone/rubber grommets and vibration reducers, standoffs, screws and other hardware for these kinds of builds?

Once I have the frame and electronics picked out I can do a weight calc and see what kind of motors and props I'll need, and then size the ESCs accordingly.

Multi-rotor gurus, please chime in!

 

[Stambo]

KK2 is a very good but really basic board.
I have 2 running on quads at the moment and they work really well for what they are.
KK2 has no gps or altitude hold capability.
For that you are better with the APM/minimOSD with GPS.
I have a crius clone that I am just coming to grips with at the moment and I have to say so far I am impressed.
I tested RTL last night and it landed less than a meter from where it took off.
There is a steep learning curve though.
Lots of parameters that can be adjusted to make subtle (or not so subtle if you get it wrong) differences.

As far as ESCs go, I would suggest either afro ESCs from HK or another that can be flashed with SimonK firmware.
The difference they make is huge.

As far as extended flight times goes, the point where the extra weight of batteries makes very little difference to flight times can be very hard to judge.
More weight means more power required to fly, juggling a fine line here and it's different for every setup.

I have no idea on quality but this frame looks interesting.
It is very similar to what I use for FPV at the moment.
It appears to have a dampened camera mount as stock equipment.
The frames with this type of arm need almost perfect motor/prop balance as the arms seem to almost amplify vibrations.
DJI version if available might have stiffer arms.
Depending on your budget, a high grade CF frame might be an option.

You have a lot of homework and research to do as what is right for me or someone else might not be right for you.

As far as your 350QX is concerned, make sure you have the compass calibrated correctly and you eliminate any source of magnetic interference,
this includes most lipo buzzers.
Vibration may also be an issue, most flight controllers hate any sort of vibrations so motors/props must be well balanced.

 

[Derek]

I have no experience with multi rotors at all but I'll be following this thread with great interest. It sounds like you are well on your way, Paul!

 

[pvolcko]

By extended flight times I'm talking 10-15 minute range. My 350QX can do 5min with the camera on there without much trouble. 8 is pushing the limit. I'd like a safe 10min and outer boundary around 15.

KK2 is well suited to matching up with my 9ch rx and the eagletree OSD system which includes, I believe, RTH capability. Not sure about leveling or altitude hold. Will have to read up more on that. And eagletree is coming out with a new system they call "vector" which is a more or less full featured control system, that doesn't require a KK2 like controller in the mix. Had i known it was coming out I may have waited. But there is something to be said for starting simpler and working up.

I'll probably hold onto the minimosd board for an APM upgrade down the line.

I've heard of the simonK flashable ESCs. I need to research more on it. Why would that firmware be better than a CC ESC setup? What does SimonK do that's special compared to stock afro ESCs or the CC's?

Would you recommend an undercarriage type setup for a gimbal as opposed to a front arm setup due to the vibration sensitivity issue you mention?

 

[Stambo]

I may be wrong but I believe the eagle tree system, unless it is a full featured FC, may give you a home arrow in the display, I don't think it will fly it home for you.
Unless the system you have is wired between the KK2 and rx.

Afro ESCs are already flashed with simonK, they have a much faster response speed than plane or heli ESCs.
They are designed from the ground up for multirotor.
You can buy cheaper HK ESCs and flash them yourself if you have the KK2 USBASP and an adapter and get a similar result.
If CC make a multi specific ESC then by all means go for it. Although I imagine they would not be cheap.

As far as undercarriage, I removed mine to save the weight.
More weight = less flight time.
I don't have a gimbal just a servo contolled tilt at the moment and I use a small camera that happily hangs below my quad on it's 500 heli skids.
One of these.

Here is a few pics of my quads to show what I mean.
Don't look too hard at my wiring, they are both still a work in progress.
The first one has runs KK2, has 1000kv 230w motors running 9" props and 4s. I get about 12 minutes flight time.
It has OSD that among other things gives me battery voltage and return home indicator
The wooden one is way overpowered, motors are in a 250mm square and are 1100kv 330w running 8" props and 4s.
It is a beast and gives me 12 minutes.
That has crius clone running MegapirateNG firmware and is capable of full autonomous flight.
I have just rebuilt this, it shrunk from it's former size and is so nimble.
I am still learning to configure the board but I do know RTH works.

 

[pvolcko]

The Eagle tree does connect between rx and kk2. It has a return to home capability, but not sure if it is a fail safe thing only or can be triggered. It also has an old option to show bearing to home as well as a sort of way point map.

Thanks for the additional info and pics. Hoping to place final orders this weekend.

In other news got my beholder lite mounted to the 350qx. Will flight test it tomorrow, gimbal uncovered. Waiting on a couple connectors to get it all wired in. Bench test and setup went good though.

 

[Stambo]

I'm thinking about a gimbal for one of mine, I need to mount it so I can look straight down so I can aim my bomb drop system.
Be a lot smoother than the servo based one I have at the moment.

Gonna try the first autonomous flight with the little woody on the weekend.
All return to launch tests have been successful so far so it's time to take the next step.
I probably will not use it very often but I still want to make sure it works.

 

[pvolcko]

I waypoint mission would be cool for filming a heli flight. Can just program it to fly a pattern that doesn't really change (perimeter of field). Problem will be if the system allows you to program in heading for each waypoint (so you can slide from point to point instead of having to be nose first into each waypoint). Also ability to program altitude into each point.

Thinking I'll have to go with an APM at some point so I can get my hands dirty in the code and make this kind of thing happen, if it isn't there already.

 

[Stambo]

I waypoint mission would be cool for filming a heli flight. Can just program it to fly a pattern that doesn't really change (perimeter of field). Problem will be if the system allows you to program in heading for each waypoint (so you can slide from point to point instead of having to be nose first into each waypoint). Also ability to program altitude into each point.

Thinking I'll have to go with an APM at some point so I can get my hands dirty in the code and make this kind of thing happen, if it isn't there already.

It's already there, I can set points of interest between waypoints, I think I can get it to fly a whole mission sideways if I want.
Still learning, but the capabilities of this thing are amazing.
I have a friend that lives 3.5 km away and one day I might take off from my place and land in his back yard.

My next one will be a higher quality version of this I think.
I may even splash out on a true APM, but they are so much more expensive.
Although with the 32 bit systems coming online soon if not already I may just wait.

With a 3d radio system, you can even change the mission while in flight.
With a click in the interface on the laptop you get options like "Point the camera here" or "Go to here and wait"

 

[pvolcko]

Yeah. Thinking I'm going to be going am route sooner than later. Hk has a am based board. Seen a couple of low cost am boards around. I'm not too concerned on price so I may go ahead and order up from the apm/3dr site direct. Help support the work and sure it will work as expected.

 

[pvolcko]

Oy... Just pulled the trigger on a bunch of stuff.

Decided to go the QAV500 route. Could only find one place listing them as in stock and I'm half expecting them to contact me in the morning and tell me they don't actually have them in stock.

(4) SunnySky V series 2216 900kv motors (will run at 3S)
(4) ZTW 30A opto escs with SimonK flashed to them already ( have the flashing stuff here if I want/need to update)
Collection of 10" props (4.5 and 5 pitch), CF and plastic/nylon, standard and reverse thrust, some graupner prop reducers, etc.
(2) 4000mAh 3S 30C lipos (glacier)
OrangeRx 8ch DSMX (I know I know... I think I have a 6ch one here that I can use if I feel unfortable with the orx)
Set of "Tall" landing props for the QAV (G10 arms) (only 6cm of clearance, but will do for now, until I decide if I want to do a front mount or a bottom mount gimbal for this)
Miscellaneous electronics stuff (bullets, EC3s, servo patch cables, a 5v step down and a 12v step up regulator, yadda yadda)
APM 2.6 with 433mhz wireless link, GPS/Compass module and power module (already have a minimosd coming from HK)
GPS antenna pole to get it up away from things


I already had a KK2 on the way and have a eagletree osd setup in hand. I'll probably end up trying both it and the APM based setup out and see which I like better. Then either sell off the other, keep it as backup, or maybe try a custom built frame, small (250-300 size), dedicated FPV machine.

Still need to get video cam, video rx/tx, and either a screen and/or glasses/goggles. Going to hold off on that until I get this QAV built and tested on at least one of the controller platforms. Let the bank account and the credit fraud monitors recover a bit after tonight.

 

[Stambo]

It looks like you got the makings of some fun happening right there.
The APM may be a bit of a nightmare to learn compared to the KK2 but for all the extra features, I think it will be worth it.
I am still learning about my clone board but the potential is there, and from all reports, the genuine APM is a better beast.

As far as a smaller quad is concerned, do it, they are lot's of fun.
Although mine is WAAAY overpowered. (That's what makes it more fun.)
I also saw in the firmware that you can adjust the max climb rate.
Won't be doing that until I have my CF props.
I am paranoid about breaking plastic props in flight.
That's what caused 2 of my last 3 crashes.

FPV is exciting and scary at the same time, but I started with a KK2 equipped quad.
No fancy altitude or GPS control, just seat of the pants flying.
OSD made a big difference though when I got it.

 

[pvolcko]

I'm not worried about the APM. I build and tweak boards like this in code for a living so this will probably be a dream by comparison, having a gui and all that. If I could have found a reliable source for clone board I may have gone that route. Admittedly, I didn't look too hard. HK was international only (and I already have the KK2 coming from them on the slow boat), so wanted to get something in my hands sooner. I'm good with chipping full boat price for this first one to 3DR to support them.

 

[WyDiablo]

Stambo I just ordered this frame today from rctimer.com
http://www.rctimer.com/product_1055.html

 

[Stambo]

Stambo I just ordered this frame today from rctimer.com
http://www.rctimer.com/product_1055.html

Cool, looking forward to your impressions of it.

 

[pvolcko]

I looked at that frame. Definitely looks cool and has many of the same features of the qav frame. Wasn't keen on ordering from rc timer though. Not looking to be waiting for 2+ weeks before getting it.

 

[WyDiablo]

So far the last orders that came from rctimer.com took between 7 and 10 days

 

[pvolcko]

I may order one as a back up, in case this QAV falls through or the place takes a long time to get it sent out. Still waiting for a shipping notice from them. Rest of the parts are on the way I think from three other vendors.

 

[WyDiablo]

I am thinking about moving my TBS Disco stuff over to this new frame mainly because of the large area that I can use for a battery holder. I'm also thinking it might be easier to get the COG than the TBS.

 

[pvolcko]

Well I have everything but the frame. Order status has been "processing" for the whole week. Going to call Monday if they don't answer my email.

In other news I balanced the props on my 350qx. First time. Used a dubro. Nice unit.

Test flight was good. Seemed there was a noticeable change in timbre of the noise. Less chaotic. Smoother. Need a calm wind day to do some test recording.